just starting out 45-70 help

[ndh87]

Im just starting to read up on casting and Im trying to figure out exactly what I need to get started. Im not concerned with speed or volume of production, i'd just like to keep the setup costs down.

I want to cast 45-70 405grn boolits. I have an unlimited supply of wheel weights so thats covered. i know i need a mold, any recomendations?

questions...

heat sources
Wood fire in a fire pit?
Propane type camp stove?

what is better for my choice of boolits, ladle or bottom pour?

anything else I need to know? I have been reading the "from ingot to target" site, that is a great resource.

Thanks
Nate

[Trapdoor]

It's funny that you post this. Check out the post titled "I prefer ladles? What about you?" that was put up just a wee bit ago. Nothing is less expensive to start up than that set-up. Perfect for a beginner. You can always experiment later. You will probably get a million different opinions on this, but that post is perfect!

[ndh87]

also, is there anywhere to read up on paper patching? can paper patch boolits be stuffed into a brass case.

[softpoint]

Alrighty, then! you are at the right place! You could start out with a Lee 405 grain mold and a small campstove, if you wanted to really stay low budget. If it were me, I'd get a Lee bottom pour furnace. And a RCBS 405 grain mold with a gascheck. Or one of the Ranchdog molds, gascheck also. The reason I'd start out with a gascheck mold is that they are more forgiving as far as sizing, alloy choice. Plainbase is good, but you will have to pay a bit more attention to things like slugging your bore, hardness of your alloy, And the bottom pour is just easier to start on,IMHO.
One of the Ranchdog molds and a sizing kit from him, and tumble lubing to start out would be about as simple as it gets. And those bullets shoot good, too. They are available in nominal weights of 350 and 425 grain. 350 would be good to start. Or you can size the RCBS bullet in the Lee sizer kit, and then either tumble lube, pan lube or get a lube sizer. There are lots of options. Some folks here cast bullets so they can shoot more. Some folks here only shoot so they can cast!

[softpoint]

also, is there anywhere to read up on paper patching? can paper patch boolits be stuffed into a brass case.

Paper patching is unique, too but I believe I'd start out with grease groove bullets, and then you can usually paper patch those same bullets .

[softpoint]

If you choose to use a camp stove, I think the gasoline pump style get a bit hotter and quicker than the propane. (unless, of course, you already have a propane)

[BoolitBill]

Everything softpoint said is good advice. I would just mention that for me, I seem to get better results with a ladle in pouring the larger molds. 45-70 boolits fill out better and I have less rejects when I use a ladle. I normally use a Lee bottom pour furnace for all my casting and it does great (once you get past the dripping). But when I cast 45-70s it is a ladle for sure.

[Jkallen83]

for my 45-70, i have the lee 405gr mold but using mostly pure lead my bullets are averaging more around 420gr.

im using a single burner coleman propane camp stove with a pot on top and a ladle. it seemed to be the cheapest way when i started out with it, and ive burned up 2 pots now but it still works great.

[Kraschenbirn]

Well, Nate, I'd say you've come to the right place to get good information. If I were you, I'd start off using the search function 'cause I'll bet dollars to donuts that anything you might want to know about loading/casting for the 45-70 has already been asked and answered (and then the answers analyzed to death) at some time in the past.

Now, first off, before anyone can supply really valid info, we're gonna need to know what you're loading for...Lever action? Trapdoor? Sharps? Rolling block? Handgun? Next, what are you going to load...smokeless or black powder? For what kind of shooting...BPCR Silhouettes? Target? Plinking? Hunting?

Forty-some years ago, I started casting on a garage-sale Coleman Stove using a 5# cast-iron lead pot, a Lyman dipper, and two Lee single-cavity moulds...a .58 Minie' for my '63 Springfield and a .44 Conical for my '58 Remington Army...and found, with patience and practice, I could produce boolits the equal of anything I could buy and the rest, as they say, is history. Today, I cast from a 20# production pot but I still cast from single-cavity moulds for three or four of my long-range guns.

So, welcome aboard; drag up a rock, pour a cup of coffee, and get yourself comfortable 'cause anybody who pours lead into boolits is always welcome.

Bill

[ndh87]

Casting for a Marlin 1895 stainless guide gun. Smokeless powder, hunting / plinking loads.
So far I've been loading jacketed bullets
405 grn with 50 grns of benchmark (those are a bit rough)
300 grn with 58 grns of benchmark.
350 lead and 15.5 grns of trailboss

Im not planning on pushing my cast boolits too terribly fast but I'd like to use something with a little more kick than trailboss

[softpoint]

Casting for a Marlin 1895 stainless guide gun. Smokeless powder, hunting / plinking loads.
So far I've been loading jacketed bullets
405 grn with 50 grns of benchmark (those are a bit rough)
300 grn with 58 grns of benchmark.
350 lead and 15.5 grns of trailboss

Im not planning on pushing my cast boolits too terribly fast but I'd like to use something with a little more kick than trailboss

Look at using either 2400, 4759, or 5744 powders to step up a bit from Trailboss. And if you want to cover a little broader range, 3031 might be your powder. It will give you more velocity, and recoil.....

[63 Shiloh]

Hey there Nate,

I use a Marlin XLR 45-70 almost exclusively with cast boolits, ranging from 260gn to 535gn boolits.

A gas burner stove will provide you the means to melt your alloy, I would suggest buying 2 different pots ( can be had for less than $3.00 at a op shop), one for your alloy and the other for your raw materials to be pored into ingots.

Wheel Weights are very handy and cheap source of boolit alloy, get friendly with your local tyre shop, mining a back stop at a range will also give you heaps of free alloy.

As previously mentioned, the RCBS 45-405-FN gas checked design is a brilliant boolit, size to .459"-.460" for the Marlins. Always best to slug your bore first, information on this process is a 'sticky; on this site.

Regarding Paper Patch, I use them in my Marlin with excellent results. I just bought a Lee .452" sizing die and pushed some .459" soft lead boolits through with some lube on the boolit. Then patch up to .459"-.460"( Dependant on bore size) these patched loads are for smokeless powder. Have about 3mm of paper above your case mouth. Lube your patch with a basic recipe of 55% Vaseline and 45%beeswax.

Have a good read of the paper patch thread to get yourself setup.

A 420gn paper patch boolit under a heavy load of Reloader 7 is devastating on most game. At 45-70 velocities I cannot justify buying expensive jacketed or mono metal bullets when the PP boolits give such good results.

So, welcome mate and best of luck with your new hobby.

Mike

[ndh87]

Im still a bit fuzzy on sizing. Is sizing the boolit necessary or are they ready to go in a casing right out of the mold?

[Kraschenbirn]

Im still a bit fuzzy on sizing. Is sizing the boolit necessary or are they ready to go in a casing right out of the mold?

I've been shooting cast in 45-70 single shots for a few years now and have yet to resize my first boolit.

First consideration, of course, is the actual 'as cast' diameter of your boolit. Most moulds (except for recent production Lyman) will cast .001-.003 over the design diameter, depending upon alloy. My Lee and RCBS moulds all drop .459-.460 from the 50/50WW and range scrap mix which I shoot 'as cast' and pan-lubed in both my H&R Trapdoor and my Pedersoli Rolling Block...both modern reproductions with .457 groove diameters. If your moulds yield a boolit diameter, at least, .002 over your barrel's groove diameter, you should be good to go with 'as cast'.

Marlins have a reputation for 'generous' throat diameters and somewhat oversize bores...'specially the microgroove barrels. For example, my M1894 .44 Mag. carbine handles .429 jacketed stuff pretty well but, shooting lead, I load .432-.433 boolits 'as cast' without any feed or chambering issues. A good rule of thumb for Marlin MG barrels seems to be: "if it'll chamber without crunching the lever, your boolit ain't oversized.

Bill

[btroj]

Do,you know anyone near you who shoots cast? Hands on training is best way to go.

The loads you listed willworkmwell but are betond what I enjoy for day to day shooting. I use a 420 gr plain base with 24 gr of 2400 for almost all my 45-70 shooting. My Marlin shoots it well.

You could do,far worse than getting a 350 gr RD mould from Ranch Dog Outdoors. For deer I think the 350 is plenty. For bigger stuff the 425 RD will do. Shoot OSS in the 1500 PDFs range and they will handle anything that needs killing.

I size to .460, it just works too well to try anything else.

[softpoint]

Lots of good advice, and no, you don't have to size,unless you do use a gascheck bullet. You could try the 350 Ranchdog without a check on it at slower speeds, and see how it works, although the Lee push thru sizing kits are very reasonably priced.

[1Shirt]

All good advice given!
1Shirt!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Nate,

As said, much good info to be found here!

Also, opinions are like noses, everybody has one!

As per casting, I have tried a bottom pour pot, and never liked the result, plus for some of my casting they just simply can't even come close to keeping up. MUCH too slow!!!!

I have for years used an old Coleman gas stove. Find them used and go for it.

Use a pot of AT LEAST 40lb capacity. Pick up a used cast iron cooking pot at the thrift store or a yard sale

Forget the Lyman or RCBS ladles, and go to the ROWELL bottom pour ladle.

Molds, Well, the cheap Lee two cavity molds are just that cheap, but a way to get your feet wet.

Their 6 cavity mold are of higher quality, but still not as good as a good custom mold.

Lyman molds have been used for years, I have a number of them, but I find them to be a pain as they are forever shaking loose. You need a wrench or screw driver in one hand and the ladle in the other.

RCBS molds are much better, quality wise then the Lyman. They hold together much better.

I personally like molds with at least 4 cavity when ever possible.

I have used a luber/sizer - Lyman and RCBS for years. Have both and use both.

I do not buy into the Lee tumble lube ( or their tumble lube boolits), so prefer to lube/size in the machine.

The White Lable lubes found on this forum are some of the really good lubes.

For the most part, although many do it and so have I, forget making your lube and buy a proven product.

If you haven't already, look for quality used equipment which is still in good shape.

You get what you pay for, and quality sticks around way after cost is no longer an issue.

For the most part, your wheel weights will do just fine and in most cases you WILL NOT need to add any tin or other metal.

Most of the time, adding anything but the bare minimum of tin is just wasting your money.

For my current 45/70 mold, the mold maker recommended I use a 50/50 mix of WW and lead. This is working well.

The above alloy is softer then plain WW, and I am shooting the 465gr. gas checked boolit in the 1600 - 1800fps range with no leading problems.

You say you have lots of wheel weights. Hope they are old ones, as they are being outlawed in some states and current production includes ZINC & STEEL, both of which YOU DO NOT WANT!! The steel won't melt, and the zinc will mess up your alloy.

Lube can make a difference. The White Label lubes (I use their "BAC") are a good place to start.

Keep us posted as to your progress.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[S.B.]

Verbal at http://lbtmoulds.com/ is a mold maker and can be a lot of help, in your position?
Steve

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

That is Veral Smith

Lead Bullet Technology
HCR 62 Box 145
Moyie Springs, Idaho 83845

If you go to Graybeard Outdoors forum, Veral has a question and answer thread on the forum.

Veral makes good molds.

I might also recommend his book, "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets."

By the way, Veral does not like, "Boolits".

Guess it offends his sensitivities.

Crusty Ol'Coot!

CDOC