44s into 44mag

[EDK]

UNCLE ELMER, patron saint of the magnums, ran 18 grains of 2400 in the old style ballon head 44 SPECIAL brass with 429421 in various COLT and SMITH & WESSON 44 SPECIALS for decades. When the solid head brass came out, he reduced the load to 17 grains. As was mentioned previously, the 44 MAGNUM was a bit more than Elmer envisioned....and he embraced it WITH some reservations. He wrote somewhere that he put 600 rounds of factory MAGNUM loads through the 6.5 inch Model S&W that was his first 44 MAGNUM in a year.

I don't hunt much, so I can use less enthusiastic loads. My preferred guns are 5.5 inch 44 MAGNUM Original Size VAQUEROS (with DRAGOON or HUNTER grip frames) or BISLEY VAQUEROS. Obviously adjustable sighted SUPER BLACK HAWKS/BISLEYS are a better choice for some purposes, but I like the VAQUEROS. My loadings are in the area that Elmer had in mind...perhaps a bit lighter. Some easier on the guns and my aging body.

Hey LLoyd, take a look at Jim Stroh's (ALPHA PRECISION) web site for his FLAT TOP conversion with the BOWEN target rear sights. He welds up the frame, re-machines it for the rear sight, etc. Beautiful workmanship from a guy who takes his work beyond craftsmanship into art work.

[PWS]

Having read in other places the loads that EDK reports, I figured 15grains under the classic 429421 would be a prudent place to start in my 4 5/8" FT .44Spl.

Must be some cold fusion going on or something because they clocked right on 1200fps and in that little gun are quite the handful!

13gr of 2400 will run these 240swcs right around 1050fps in my pistol and that's about all the knuckle of my middle finger wants to shoot.

[EDK]

The NEW version of 2400 is allegedly some hotter than the older version...don't know the cut-off dates/lot numbers, but its been a few years.

Pressure testing equipment and chronographs have been improved considerably since a lot of these loads were developed. There were a lot of "estimates" on pressure and velocity...Scientific Wild A** Guesses might be better!...back in the "good old days." Looking at published loads in LYMAN and other reloading manuals dating back to the 1950s/1960s is a good example. Loads have been reduced.

I got "my knuckles dusted" with XR3-red grip frames on 5.5 inch SUPER BLACK HAWKS and VAQUEROS, so I switched to DRAGOON/HUNTER grip frames on all of mine. No problem with the BISLEYS in that length. The SAA style grip is sadly lacking when you go for higher end performance; EAGLE GRIPS Gunfighter Model grips will help as much as is possible.

The various gun writers who praised the various "wrist wreckers" in the past seem to have re-dsicovered the 44 Special and 45 Colt in more conservative loadings. Load a little lighter and avoid carpal tunnel...your guns will appreciate it also.

[Larry in MT]

Having read in other places the loads that EDK reports, I figured 15grains under the classic 429421 would be a prudent place to start in my 4 5/8" FT .44Spl.

Must be some cold fusion going on or something because they clocked right on 1200fps and in that little gun are quite the handful!

13gr of 2400 will run these 240swcs right around 1050fps in my pistol and that's about all the knuckle of my middle finger wants to shoot.

Do you mean to say 15 grains of 2400? If so, your velocities surely are different than mine --- Really different.

In a Stainless, NM BlackHawk 44 Special, 4 5/8" barrel:

16 grains 2400 + 250 grain 429421 + WW LPP + Starline brass = 1060 fps

the 240 grain Nosler JHP with 16 grains of 2400 does 1050 fps.

[PWS]

Larry, you read the numbers correctly. Beats me why 2400 is so fast in this particular pistol as 700X, Clays, IMR4227, and Universal are behaving normally. Pressures are there with the 2400 too (according to case expansions) so I'm glad I didn't start higher! Here's a few more with 2400:

#429421, .430", 22Bhn, Lyman Moly lube, CBC brass, Fed 150 primer:

14gr - 1139 fps
13gr - 1103 fps

RCBS 44-240SWC GC, .430", 22Bhn, White Label CR lube, CBC brass, Fed 150 primer:

13.5gr - 1122 fps
13.0gr - 1053 fps

Cylinder throats are on the large size, almost .432" and I think the bore is a bit small .427" but I haven't measured it other than on recovered (and somewhat distorted) slugs.

I haven't tried a bunch of different bullets yet but the #429421 and the RCBS will group into 1 1/2" at 25yards pretty often. Not sure I need to look much further!

[PWS]

Sorry for the hijack of the original "44s into 44mag" post. Point being, the conversion may not be necessary at all!

[monge]

Is that 14grs of 2400 a compressed load ? Thanks Joe

[PacMan]

Do you mean to say 15 grains of 2400? If so, your velocities surely are different than mine --- Really different.

In a Stainless, NM BlackHawk 44 Special, 4 5/8" barrel:

16 grains 2400 + 250 grain 429421 + WW LPP + Starline brass = 1060 fps

the 240 grain Nosler JHP with 16 grains of 2400 does 1050 fps.

I am getting 1140fps with 16 grains of 2400 in my BH using a Keith 150gr.

[PWS]

Is that 14grs of 2400 a compressed load ? Thanks Joe

Not quite and 15grains was also very close to 100% load density. I'd planned on working upwards from 15gr but after getting 1200fps, I had to go down!

[1Shirt]

I guess my question would be "why would you need or want to to it"? To me a waste of time, and money. A good 44Sp works just fine, doen'nt need to be fixed.
1Shirt!

[monge]

Some people say 2400 doesnt like short barrels and unique is a better chioce what do you guys think? my two 44sp both have short barrels.

[Larry in MT]

Some people say 2400 doesnt like short barrels and unique is a better chioce what do you guys think? my two 44sp both have short barrels.

As stated above, I use 2400 in my 4 5/8" Flattop with heavy bullets. Especially with 250 grain WFNGCs, Power Pistol (a faster powder -- in the Unique range) won't give the velocity that 2400 does, at least in my gun.

[Larry in MT]

Larry, you read the numbers correctly. Beats me why 2400 is so fast in this particular pistol as 700X, Clays, IMR4227, and Universal are behaving normally. Pressures are there with the 2400 too (according to case expansions) so I'm glad I didn't start higher! Here's a few more with 2400:

#429421, .430", 22Bhn, Lyman Moly lube, CBC brass, Fed 150 primer:

14gr - 1139 fps
13gr - 1103 fps

RCBS 44-240SWC GC, .430", 22Bhn, White Label CR lube, CBC brass, Fed 150 primer:

13.5gr - 1122 fps
13.0gr - 1053 fps

Cylinder throats are on the large size, almost .432" and I think the bore is a bit small .427" but I haven't measured it other than on recovered (and somewhat distorted) slugs.

I haven't tried a bunch of different bullets yet but the #429421 and the RCBS will group into 1 1/2" at 25yards pretty often. Not sure I need to look much further!

I'd surely be interested in your results using a different lot of 2400 --- I've never seen/heard of velocities even close to yours.

It takes Brian Pearce (Handloader Mag) 17 grains of 2400 to get 1200 fps with a 250 grain 429421 in a 5 1/2"er.

[EDK]

Velocity can be effected by a lot of variables.

RUGER made a short run of 38-40 and 10MM/40 S&W? convertible BLACK HAWKS awhile back. Various gun writers reported EXTREMELY high velocity with factory ammo....they also mentioned that case expansion was minimal due to TIGHT chambering. Some research on the 38/40 shows a great variation between factory chamber and ammo dimensions...the case really gets altered/expanded when fired...then you overwork the brass reloading it!

My SWAG (Scientific Will A** Guess) is that PWS has a gun with optimal dimensions for velocity....AND accuracy sounds pretty good too.

[Larry in MT]

EDK
I'm not trying to beat this to death, PWS surely knows of what he speaks:

but .... explain to me why only 2400 produces exceptional velocity figures for PWS while all the other powders behave normally...

I have a Rem 700 in 7 Mag that produces more fps than it should with reasonable pressure signs using IMR4831. Never quite figured out why.