Okay Gentlemen what am I doing wrong here?

[MikeS]

I first started casting & reloading the 9mm round a few weeks ago. Before I started I read all I could specifically about the 9 here, so I was well prepared. I bought a Lyman set of dies, and only used the resizing die, and the seating die. I also bought a separate taper crimp die (I bought a Lee, but NOT the FCD, just a taper crimp die, it was less than $10.00). For expanding the brass I used an expander designed for the 38 Special round which expanded the brass much more than I imagine it would have been expanded by the expander in the 9mm die set I bought. For a boolit I got the Lee 105gr SWC that's really designed for 38Spec/357Mag but also works well in the 9mm. I cast my boolits out of Lyman #2 alloy (90/5/5). Besides the boolits being relatively hard (around 15BHN) I think the Lee 105gr boolit is short enough so all of it is above where the brass starts to get thicker, so the brass had less chance of swaging my boolits smaller.

The first time I took my 9mm cast boolit reloads to the range I really thought I was going to be in for lots of barrel scrubbing when I got home, but I was really surprised that when I took out the barrel there wasn't a bit of lead in it at all! What all this means is that it's totally possible to get a leading free load from a 9mm. I just happened to get really lucky that I got it on my first attempt! I almost forgot, I loaded those rounds with 5gr of HP-38 (AKA W231) which isn't a light load, but isn't a max load either. Don't get discouraged if it doesn't workout the first time out, you will find the right load that will do what you want it to!

[snuffy]

After reading this entire thread yesterday morn., I took a look at my set-up on the dillon 650. I had achieved marginal success by going with a very hard boolit, (water quenched range lead, 18 BHN), having had leading problems with much softer boolits, along with no accuracy.

Goodsteel's comment about the harder boolit works because it resists being sized by the brass is exactly what was/is happening with my set-up. How do I know? By pulling one of those hard boolits that had been loaded by my machine. Even though very hard, the boolit sized at .358, was reduced to .355 by the very undersized brass. Apparently this was large enough to run in my CZ 75B, with no leading and acceptable accuracy. They also worked in my son's CZ P-01, and my Ruger LC-9.

I took the powder die apart to get at the powder funnel, dillons name for the powder-through-expander tube. The expander portion is only about ½ inch long before going into the belling taper. It mics out at .353! The resulting inside diameter of an expanded case was .354!

I have a conversion kit for 38/.357. I miced the powder funnel for that, it's a lot shorter, and miced at .355. The expander portion is also much longer, made for the longer .357 bullets.

Dillon never meant for this to be used for 9mm.!? Because it's shorter, the powder die body bottoms out before the expander goes into the case far enough to bell the case mouth. What I needed was a spacer between the bottom of the powder measure tube, and the top of the powder funnel.

What I came up with was the base of a junk 500 S&W case that puts .210 between the powder drop tube and the powder funnel. It worked! Now, running the case through the sizer, then the primer/powder/expand operation at station 2, gave me an inside diameter of .355 at the case mouth. Seating and crimping,(lee FCD), gave me a pulled boolit diameter of .3565! An improvement to be sure, .0015 increase.

I should have stopped there, but the excessive sizing of the brass bothered me. The lee sizer was reducing the inside diameter too much. I decided to back off the sizer to see if it would only size the very end of the case mouth. I had to lower the deprimer punch, but it worked!

I also eliminated the lee FCD, even though it was NOT post sizing, just taper crimping. I had to drop the seater die down to crimp, not a problem. But that opens up a station, so I ordered a RCBS expander die and a .357 button. I may put that in station two, run the powder drop in station 3. Then move the powder sensor to #4, seat/crimp in #5.

Proof of what I did was an improvement will be in a range session next week. Maybe I'm chasing ghosts, but it should result in me being able to shoot air cooled range lead @ 12 BHN, with good accuracy. Another thought provoking thread on cast boolits forum. You can learn, or be stubborn that you're doing things right.

[geargnasher]

Snuffy, be careful expanding those cases too deeply. Ideally I've found that if you can expand the case to .002" under boolit diameter and only just a hint deeper than the boolit will be seated, you have a pretty good setup. Otherwise, if the case tension isn't enough the boolits can work back in the cases in the magazine under recoil and cause huge pressure excursions when chambered and fired.

It's really nice to have the expander leave a sort of "step" in the case that acts like a cannelure to make a positive stop for the boolit.

Like you said, the case needs to be expanded DEEPLY enough to not squish the boolit base, and this is where many expander spuds fall way short of the mark. Here's an RCBS expander spud for .357 Magnum that does the trick quite nicely:



Gear

[snuffy]

Like you said, the case needs to be expanded DEEPLY enough to not squish the boolit base, and this is where many expander spuds fall way short of the mark. Here's an RCBS expander spud for .357 Magnum that does the trick quite nicely:

Gear, that RCBS expander looks a lot like the spud for the expander die I just ordered from Grafs. It also resembles the dillon expander.

I AM concerned about case neck tension, I will run a few with the current set-up, then do a bench press test, to see if I can move/seat it further with hand pressure. I may lower the sizer a bit more, just to be safe. I know that crimp should never be relied on to hold boolits.

I may run the sizer die back where it belongs, then just rely on the expander to give me the fit I need. I'm looking for around .356 inside dia of the case for the .358 boolits. Those are the lee 356-125-2R.

[guidogoose]

I first started casting & reloading the 9mm round a few weeks ago. Before I started I read all I could specifically about the 9 here, so I was well prepared. I bought a Lyman set of dies, and only used the resizing die, and the seating die. I also bought a separate taper crimp die (I bought a Lee, but NOT the FCD, just a taper crimp die, it was less than $10.00). For expanding the brass I used an expander designed for the 38 Special round which expanded the brass much more than I imagine it would have been expanded by the expander in the 9mm die set I bought. For a boolit I got the Lee 105gr SWC that's really designed for 38Spec/357Mag but also works well in the 9mm. I cast my boolits out of Lyman #2 alloy (90/5/5). Besides the boolits being relatively hard (around 15BHN) I think the Lee 105gr boolit is short enough so all of it is above where the brass starts to get thicker, so the brass had less chance of swaging my boolits smaller.

The first time I took my 9mm cast boolit reloads to the range I really thought I was going to be in for lots of barrel scrubbing when I got home, but I was really surprised that when I took out the barrel there wasn't a bit of lead in it at all! What all this means is that it's totally possible to get a leading free load from a 9mm. I just happened to get really lucky that I got it on my first attempt! I almost forgot, I loaded those rounds with 5gr of HP-38 (AKA W231) which isn't a light load, but isn't a max load either. Don't get discouraged if it doesn't workout the first time out, you will find the right load that will do what you want it to!

I second your thoughts sir. I have never had a problem with harder alloys. That's all I have used from the beginning. I hate to admit it but if my barrel looked like the original poster's barrel, my casting career would most likely have come to halt. I have even run straight linotype in 9mm with zero leading. Until I joined this forum, I thought leading was a myth. I have never experienced it. I bought a tube of bore paste when I first started casting and it still sealed in the packaging.

[Harter66]

I use RCBS 3 die pistol sets my 9mm Luger expander die came w/the 38/358 spud in it . For a while I even gave up on sizing cases at all. Much later I found that my leading was never leading , it was copper bonding. Once I got all of the jaxets out no more leading except when I run the gun hot like strings of 3-5 magazines. Even then it mostly just brushes out.

Recipie,
Lee 356-124 TLTC as cast @.359+
Unique 3.8
Darrs lube tweeked w/added STP.
Seated over the front band for consistant battery
Little to no crimp

Fired brass is .381+ finished loaded is .380 in WIN brass w/CCI SM pistol primers. The bore is .357 pulled boolits are .358 + . I think the expander plug is the salvation for me.

[Recluse]

1- Check for crimping die "squish" on some pulled boolits.
2- use a more suitable (slower) powder.
3- Understand that Quenched boolits take about 3 weeks after quenching to reach their full Bhn.
4- Consider something other than a tumble lube design in high pressure rounds.
5- FIT, FIT, FIT.

BTQ- The leading will come right out with 4/0 steel wool on a brush.

Inarguable, proven words to cast, shoot and live by.

i was just gonna blame it on the lee t/l design.
this boolit has to be the number one thread starter on this board.

As soon as I saw "Lee TL124RN". . .

Moptop, I have that mold and was not happy with the results I was getting. So. . .

I lapped it out to where it drops just a mic'd skosh over .358. My rational is that I can always size boolits down easier than I can size them up.

I water quench everything 9mm simply because of the pressures and abuse involved in that cartridge.

My lube is 45/45/10, lube, size, lube, load and I've had no leading--accuracy was my elusive frustration.

Combination for me is hard boolit, ample lube, slow powder and snug fit.

Hmmm. Sounds exactly like what Bret wrote. . .

We repeat ourselves and each other a lot here.



P.S. You can tumble lube ANY boolit design, by the way. I only tumble-lube my .45 caliber stuff and only one of the boolits is a TL design. I also tumble-lube my .358 SWC 105 boolits and I often tumble-lube my .358 WC boolits.

[moptop]

--accuracy was my elusive frustration.

Recluse, I had accuracy problems as well untill I started measuring all, ALL, my cases. There is a great article by Jim Taylor about 9mm case lenght.

here's the link: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta..._reloading.htm

Anything that doesn't measure at least .748" I trash (recycle). Once I started that all of my accuracy issues disappeared. I proved it to my brother and myself by doing the same procedure by loading 10 rounds each in 5 different case lenghts from .747"-.750". My BHP group got very tight with the .749". Headspacing is a big issue with 9mm. If it's not long enough the case will headspace on the extractor and instead of on the chamber rim and that' when accuracy goes to Gehenna real quick.

I "Beagled" the blocks on my TL124 mold so it drops at a bit over .358" and them push thru size them.

I was able to stop by Graf's today and bought a 38P "M" die but I got home late this evening so I try it out possible tomorrow.......provided I get home early enough.

The bore is .357 pulled boolits are .358 + . I think the expander plug is the salvation for me.

Harter66, I agree with you. I'm just hoping there is enough "salvation" to go around!

Thanks again for all the guidance.

[Frozone]

I had Chris of LatheSmith turn me a custom powder through expander for my LEE die set.
Solved all the problems.

and my oh my, the LEE FDC was NOT the problem, imagine that!!!!

[guidogoose]

I size my 9MMs at .358 for my HP as well. I shoot a Lee 120 TC with standard lube groove. I would try straight clip on WWs. Lube with Alox, let dry, size, light tumble lube again and then seat it over 3.5gr. Bullseye. Make sure they pass the chamber test (fall in/fall out). If you are using the FCD by Lee STOP.

I tried some non crimped bullets today along with the crimped. Didn't noticed a difference which is great! Now I can skip a die on my single stage press. Sweet!