I hope you have a better outcome than mine. If I can help, be glad to. I didn't have that kind of money in my "work" so I had to eventually chalk it up to experience. A really bad one. That guy has his sincerity routine down pat and then when you finally lose your patience, he decides you aren't nice enough to deserve your money back.
The toolmarks and bumps of solder are simply awful. The cavities in soldering tell me something bad may happen. I would not shoot this, not even if sentenced to that by the court.
My bad. I always figured that a trade of this type had some regulatory agency overseeing their qualifications. After all, they are working on property that could potentially harm the user if improper repairs were made. Never gave much thought as to who it might be.Originally Posted by dpaultx
I have an airframe and powerplant mechanics license. I have to answer to the FAA and the DOT. Auto mechanics have to be licensed in this state as well as beauticians. Farriers too, and I'm sure more trades.
Dutch
"The future ain't what it used to be".
-Yogi Berra.
Think about it. Most licensing agents are nothing short of a tax collection agency and little more.
There are good A&P's and bad A&P's, there are good beauticians and bad beauticians. Today, a license means nothing, spend your time, spend your dime and you have a license.
This goes deeper than that. Any agency can set a standard but unless something crashes in the middle of a school, seldom does anything get done.
Best thing to do is drag this hack up in front of a Judge and even then remember, you may very well get your money back but he will not lose the FFL.
Facta non verba
About certification...
On another website I read a post about crowning a rifle barrel. The poster explained that the technique demonstrated in a on-line video was wrong because he was a certified master gunsmith and knew the correct way to do the procedure.
I wanted to call b.s. but that would have evolved into personal attacks. Knowing how I am at times, I let it be.
The fact is that this "certified master gunsmith" is around 21 years old, was an apprentice for a few years and is now trying to open his own business.
It's true that "Certification" is offered by AGI upon completion of their video course in gunsmithing.
They also have a Master gunsmithing course and certification. So, the above mentioned "master gunsmith" could indeed claim such credentials, if he had said certificate.
I feel that the word "master" should be reserved for the top of a field, whether the title is given to a machinist, mechanic, or whoever. I can't wrap my head around a guy with a couple years of experience having mastered anything.
I realize that after I graduate from school I will only have the basic building blocks of 'real' gunsmithing. Only though years of dedication to study, learning and practice can you really begin to master anything. I once read something about competition shooting that said 'perfect practice makes for perfect performance'.
Just because some schmo has been hacking guns in a 'professional' shop for x number of years doesn't make him any more expert than some hobbyist in his garage doing quality work.
I guess the point I'm making with this long winded off topic rant is that any dirt bag can claim anything, certification or not. A certificate, sometimes, isn't worth the paper it's written on. You would expect an "certified" mechanic to be an expert, but that isn't always the case. Some mechanics, like some gunsmiths swap parts and are not concerned about 'hows' or 'whys' that caused the problem.
I think in a nut shell, in order for someone to one day be called a true 'master' he has to really give a damn about what he's doing. You have to have the deep down desire to produce a quality product and care about customer satisfaction. No, you can't please everyone, but those people should be few and far between.
About that poor thing in the pictures...
That shotgun/double rifle looks terrible. I would be ashamed to let that leave my shop. I would be ashamed to have my name and my business associated with it. I would be so ashamed that I would give you your money back and pay you for your inconvenience. I would then rip up my business license and get a job at Walmart.
If you are going to be a parts swapper, be a good one.
If you are going to be a gunsmith, be a good one.
(That being said I am not taking a side in what will likely turn into a big dispute. From the pictures, the gun looks like hell, but there are two sides to every story.)
Last edited by John 242; 06-05-2012 at 01:59 PM.
I would ask how it shoots, but I don't think I would shoot it.
Sorry dude.
Usually I believe in people and my first thought was that he mistakenly shipped a prototype out. But hearing how he's no longer responding to the customer...
I have been extremely fortunate to have a good friend in the Pistolsmith Guild and he has done a lot of work and gun builds for me. I have seen a lot of excellent work and guess I am used to it, I just can't believe that someone would actually let that kind of garbage out the door. Not only is it really bad and ugly, it has to be unsafe, I mean at this level of work I can't believe it is heat treated or have any substantial safety factor built into it. I agree and emphansise "Do not shoot it" As bad as loosing $3K and several years time, ending up blind or with a piece of the gun burried in my head is not worth it. Legal action is spendy and time consuming not to mention not extremely sastifying in the long run. I don't know what the right answer is but don't stop advertising for this dirtbag. Spread the word and pictures of this guys work and how he treats his customers to every forum and site and everywhere you can. People need to know. I don't think it's a smear campaign on him, he put this work out and his name on it, same as the guys that do good work, word of mouth and the press is what a lot of they rely on, so spread the word. He may change his company name or something but things like this will follow and hopefully haunt him for a long time. Just my $.02 worth.
Judges are not very bright but they will usually believe a good qualified witness,
And,,,, even an Idiot can plainly see how bad that job is.
Take them to small claims court.
There are easy ways to get your money if they refuse to pay the court ruling.
In spite of my background and education, I don't like litigation and think it should be avoided whenever possible. In this case, I would give it serious consideration. Three thousand dollars is enough, at least for me, to be distressed about. I would also be concerned about this fellow bilking others out of money as well.
Most states have small claim courts whereby a legal remedy can be sought without the use of an Attorney.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
The guys right out of gunsmithing school are just at the stage to begin to learn, and know just enough to be semi-dangerous. Kind of like a college graduate. Some of the best gunsmiths I know have never been in a school for it. I doubt that Dennis Olsen, John King, Tim Mitchell, or Gene Gordner ever set foot in a gun school. I don't put myself in their class, but neither have I. The only worthwhile education you can get is hands on, like Monte Mandarino, who apprenticed with John Bivins.
Some have the knack, some are just hacks.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
In most fields of work you have to prove you're minimally proficient before you can hang out a shingle. For whatever reason, it's not like that in gunsmithing and so people like me and ELeeton are left to learn that lesson the hard way. And next year someone else will go through the same thing with this guy or some other gunsmith, for no good reason.
Absolutely Small Claims Court...........Up in Maine you have good odds of getting a Judge that is also a gun nut!
I hunt in Maine right down the road from Mr Wright. I've tried to visit a number of times to see his work first hand but have never been successful in catching him at home.
It simply amazes me that anyone would deliver a firearm and charge money for that horrible work. In 40 years of collecting and gunsmithing, I've never seen such horrible work. Never!
I've seen work done by "kitchen gunsmiths" that looked way better.
So sorry for your loss, but THANK YOU for letting the shooting public know.
Once again. I'd go Small Claims Court for sure!
Reg is right about the small claims court --
Many courts also have a advocate who will help you with forms and proceedures.
Generally no attorneys are allowed so you must prepare your own case.
Be sure to warn the bailifs ahead of time you are bringing in a firearm - They are often somwhat skittish about that nowdays.
As I live in Texas it is difficult and costly to fly up to Maine to file and then again for a hearing of whatever duration. They will not let me file by mail. I do not know if they permit a proxy to file on my behalf other than an attorney. I can have a local attorney file for me but this is costly as well. The costs associated with either option come close to the money I've lost thus far. Even if I win it doesn't mean I will get my money. So that may take more action to finally get my money back. The bar association will not recommend an attorney for contingency or prop bono cases. This means I have to find an attorney willing to talk with me an pay his consulting fees to see if he will even take my case. I am trying to find an attorney in the area who will take my case. I currently cannot afford to pay multiple consulting fees, whatever they may be, until I finally get someone to say yes.
I hope you figure out something so I can enjoy it vicariously. When I was looking into those things, it was one dead end after another. Btw, did Maine give you the date for the complaint I filed against him?
She didn't give the date but stated she found your name and file. I was in the process of trying to fax a copy of the certified letter and written appraisal of the work. My mediator only works on Tuesday from 8-12 and I had called her fairly late in the day.
Is there such thing as paralegal in Maine?
But even if there is, I found either lawyers or paralegals extremely reluctant where I live. They don't seem to want to take any work whatsoever that I was offering over the years, including pleasant, easy work. Looks absolutely like they all have grow-ops in their basements and use their pro corporations as shields for money laundering.
For an unrelated matter I had to call half a dozen paralegals in another city to hire someone for information gathering, but none of the offices actually picked up the phone of had voicemail. The phones just kept ringing. Weird!
Last edited by Tokarev; 06-06-2012 at 02:03 PM.
"Judges are not very bright"
Don't throw us all under the bus. I'm not the only one that hangs out on this forum.
it's plain as the nose on your face! you guy's are slippin in your older years that you haven't figured out who done this! it's a CRACK HEAD !
skimmerhead
Cheap things are not good and Good Thing's Are Not Cheap
the worst part of getting old; is remembering when you were young
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