Martini-henry mark iv

[clarks359]

I just bought a Martini-Henry Mark IV in 577-450. I have wanted one for a long time and finally made it happen. I was looking around for the items to load for it, and had some questions. I found articles about forming the brass from 24ga brass shotgun hulls. Are they better than the formed brass made by Jamison? Can 577-450 brass be formed from 577 Express brass?
I was also wondering about which bullets to use. I know that I need to slug the bore to get the diameter. I don't know yet if I'm going to paper patch or try to cast to bore diameter. What hardness of boolit would be best to use? I have lots of wheel weights, but I'm afraid they may be to hard.
I appreciate any and all help and suggestions. Thanks

[Ed in North Texas]

The Mark IV came in three versions, usually called A, B and C. B and C are easily distinguished from A by the front sight. B & C have a ramp type front sight, A does not. The difference between B & C is the barrel. B versions were initially made as Martini-Enfield .40 caliber rifles. When the Brits decided that adding .40 caliber ammunition to the supply system just a few years before changing to the .303 would hopelessly complicate the system (leaving 3 different rifle ammunitions, .577-450 M-H, the new .40 caliber M-E and soon to be .303). So the decision was made to convert the already made Martini-Enfield .40 caliber rifles to .577-450 Martini-Henry. The B barrels are re-bored/re-chambered to .577-450 and the bores are larger than the purpose made C barrels. Taking down the rifle can show which barrel you have - the B barrels had to be re-inspected and re-proofed, resulting in two sets of markings on the barrels (and you can't miss the long list of marks next to each other).

Generally, .462 boolits work well for any Mark IV, with .457 being a bit on the small side for the B barrels. The "leade" on the Henry type barrels is very generous, and long (about 8" IIRC), which has resulted in some people reporting good results with boolits as large as .476 even on earlier Mark II rifles. Wheel weight boolits have been successfully used in the M-H. Don't need to water quench them though.

Brass can be formed from the .24 gauge brass shotshells. Forming is fairly easy, with a couple of annealings and going slow being the path to easy forming. There is a You-Tube video on the process - I think it is also located on the IMA webpage for the Mark IVs. There is also a thread on Cast Boolits (can't recollect whether Black Powder or Single Shots) which has extensive posts on his experience forming from the CBC shotshells - I think Adrians (??) was the poster. The CBC brass shotshells are lighter (thinner case walls) than the Jamison brass, so it seems reasonable to believe the Jamison will probably last longer. But the CBC shotshells are significantly cheaper than either Jamison or particularly Bertram (and they are no longer Berdan primer pocket brass, one less hassle to their use). If you are considering Jamison, know that Jamison closed the company doors a short while ago, what is out there is all there is unless the company re-opens at a future date.

I believe one of the members has successfully used a .577 based Express type case for forming, but he's in Australia and Brit large bore cases are much easier to find than in the US.

I guess you are aware of IMA and Atlanta Cutlery as parts sources. There are other sources too, including one person making screws and pins which are exact copies. Have you taken your rifle down yet?

The British Militaria website's Martini-Henry forum has many very knowledgeable and helpful members. An essential resource for the M-H owner.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/

Hope that helps.

Ed

[clarks359]

Ed, thanks for the reply. I think my rifle is an A series, front sight on a small square block, repair to stock for change to long lever. My barrel has 2 sets of proof marks, so has it been rebored? The top flat of the barrel is stamped PAK with the #18 under that, maybe Pakistani issue? I will try to post pic later to help with positive ID. I knew IMA and Atlanta Cutlery as suppliers of rifles, but didn't think of parts.I have cast boolits for my 45-70, they measure .458 at the first band. I put one nose first into the muzzle, it went in up to that first band, hopefully I can use them for this Martini. Once again thanks for any and all help.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, thanks for the reply. I think my rifle is an A series, front sight on a small square block, repair to stock for change to long lever. My barrel has 2 sets of proof marks, so has it been rebored? The top flat of the barrel is stamped PAK with the #18 under that, maybe Pakistani issue? I will try to post pic later to help with positive ID. I knew IMA and Atlanta Cutlery as suppliers of rifles, but didn't think of parts.I have cast boolits for my 45-70, they measure .458 at the first band. I put one nose first into the muzzle, it went in up to that first band, hopefully I can use them for this Martini. Once again thanks for any and all help.

Yes, that is an "A" barrel. .458 boolits can be used, and I would try them before doing anything else. Most Mark IV reloaders find that a .462 boolit is pretty much the minimum for accuracy in the Mark I through III rifles. A .458 will shoot, so it is worth trying first. Recommended for the Mark IVs is .470 to .472. If your .458 doesn't excite you accuracy wise, you should consider paper patching it to proper diameter. The problem is the groove diameters (or what we would call groove diameter as this is Henry rifling) are really deep by modern standards. Here's a web page with a diagram of the bore:

britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/50140/S-O-G-457-Martini#reply-50140

[cuzinbruce]

[QUOTE=clarks359;1611288]I just bought a Martini-Henry Mark IV in 577-450. I have wanted one for a long time and finally made it happen. I was looking around for the items to load for it, and had some questions. I found articles about forming the brass from 24ga brass shotgun hulls. Are they better than the formed brass made by Jamison? Can 577-450 brass be formed from 577 Express brass?


I believe Jamison went out of business. I have been looking for a couple of their items. Check around on the web if you are interested. If you see anything of theirs that you can use, better grab it.

[clarks359]

Thanks ED, I thought it was an A series. I will try the .458 boolits and see how it goes. I have seen loads with both black powder and smokeless, is either one eaiser on the rifle and also on me? I don't know anything about paper patching. So the patch increases the diameter of the bullet to match the barrel? Can you paper patch a smokeless load? There is so much to learn, but that is part of the fun. Thanks for the help.

[clarks359]

Cuzinbruce, I just ordered some Jamison brass and a die set from Buffalo Arms. Their website showed both items in stock. Hopefully there won't be any kind of delay or backorder problem.

[303Guy]

clarks359, paper patching is definitely a good option. It does indeed enlarge the boolit to fit the bore - groove actually. The patched boolit can be larger than groove to fit the throat which also reduces or eliminate neck sizing and being a single shot, only a light finger press fit is required. And yes, smokeless patching is a way to go. Have a look at the Smokeless Paper Patching forum. You can choose a powder that fills the case but that might be tricky with the pressure requirements, meaning a powder that will still burn properly at the lower pressure required. A filler can be used to reduce the volume of a faster powder so there are actually many options. Maybe even Trail Boss would work - I don't know. I do know there is a rifle powder which does not work, that being MR200. It makes a fizz-bang effect.

I passed up an opportunity to bid on a 303 Martini, being flat broke at the moment. Pity - I've always wanted one. I don't need one but that's beside the point.

Oh, you'll find the folks over on the Smokeless Paper Patching forum just as helpful, friendly and as knowledgeable as everywhere else on this site. We don't have a 577/450 paper patcher over there - it would be great to have you on board!

Not saying you should try BP paper patching too. Do both. Paper patching is fun.

[Ed in North Texas]

303guy: There's an interesting idea - finding a smokeless which fills the .577-450 case. Don't mention smokeless and old English firearms around most of the British Militaria folks, though.



You didn't "need" a .303 Martini-Enfield? What does "need" have to do with anything? Seriously I've been fighting off urges with "I don't need that", but it really is SWMBO who sometimes causes me to not buy another toy.

Ed

[Boz330]

The advantage of BP is that you will get bump up to fill the grooves for undersize boolits.

The 577-450 case will hold anywhere between 105 and 115g of BP depending on whether you use the Magtech formed brass or the Jamison or Bertram cases. That is a lot of case for smokeless and if you use a filler make it Kapok or Dacron. Do not use a solid filler since that will act like an obstruction in a bottleneck case.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

The advantage of BP is that you will get bump up to fill the grooves for undersize boolits.

The 577-450 case will hold anywhere between 105 and 115g of BP depending on whether you use the Magtech formed brass or the Jamison or Bertram cases. That is a lot of case for smokeless and if you use a filler make it Kapok or Dacron. Do not use a solid filler since that will act like an obstruction in a bottleneck case.

Bob

All correct. The standard load in BP was 85 grains of BP under the 480 grain paper patched boolit, 75 and a 400 grain boolit for the carbine load (IIRC). I don't think I'd want to try a 115 grain load under a 480 to 500 grain boolit, YMMV. Cotton balls (taken apart to fibers) are also a good filler. Some folks use a cardboard (solid, not corrugated) "liner" to reduce case capacity. And the old Brit filler is carded wool. COW can be used, but it is recommended as an "active" filler (i.e. mixed with a small amount of the BP load to prevent it clogging the neck). Simpler to use another filler.

Here's a link to the reloading forum of the British Militaria website. Loads, both BP and smokeless are listed for the .577-450 and other cartridges:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...s#.T1DRBnmElh0

[Boz330]

COW can be used, but it is recommended as an "active" filler (i.e. mixed with a small amount of the BP load to prevent it clogging the neck). Simpler to use another filler.

Here's a link to the reloading forum of the British Militaria website. Loads, both BP and smokeless are listed for the .577-450 and other cartridges:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...s#.T1DRBnmElh0

50-50 COW and 3F BP. The COW is consumed by the BP burning. I have had very good luck with this combo. My load is 65gr of 1 F and about 55 to 58gr of the active filler on top of that depending on whether using Magtec or Bertram cases. Then a card wad grease wad and another card on top of that. I have tried Kapok with little success for a filler.

This target was shot with that load at 100yd.

Bob

[clarks359]

Thanks for the replys.
303 Guy, I would love to find a load that would use Trail Boss, .458 bullets hand inserted into the case, that would work very well with the components I already have.
Ed, thanks for the link to the British forum, I bet they have alot of good info there. I'm going to sign up on that forum.
Bob, That is a great grouping! When you use the COW do you mix it in with the BP, or add it on top of the BP?

[Boz330]

COW is mixed half and half with 3F BP, do not just use COW it will act as an obstruction, with potentially catastrophic results.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

Thanks for the replys.
303 Guy, I would love to find a load that would use Trail Boss, .458 bullets hand inserted into the case, that would work very well with the components I already have.
Ed, thanks for the link to the British forum, I bet they have alot of good info there. I'm going to sign up on that forum.
Bob, That is a great grouping! When you use the COW do you mix it in with the BP, or add it on top of the BP?

Pardon me Bob, but I'm just reading again and thought I'd answer for you. The load Bob referenced was 65 grains of 1F loaded first. Then 55 to 58 grains by weight of a 50-50 mix of COW and 3F Black Powder (yielding a total BP load of about 93 grains and about 28 grains of COW), topped with the wads, grease cookie, etc.

Ed

[enfield]

Boz330 do you put anything between the BP & the 50/50 mix ? I have been putting a pinch of cotton between but maybe I dont have to ?? . I have tried Trail Boss and lived to tell the tail ! IMR lists 12 - 13 gr for a 45-70 with a 405 gr boolit so I tried 12 grains in a magtec case with a paper patched Lee 405 grain HB . I was able to put 3 in a little clover leaf at 50 yards and we were plinking at things from 25 to 50 yards offhand and there was no hangfires or signs of position sensativity . I must try that again.

[clarks359]

Once again thanks to everyone for their help.
Bob, Ed, So the load is 65gr 1F loaded first, then the 55-58gr of 3F-COW 50/50 mix? Then what kinds of filler-patches in which order? Thanks

[clarks359]

Enfield Man,
So you used 12gr Trail Boss, a 405gr boolit? What diameter did you patch the bullet to? Which Martini did you use to shoot that nice group?

[Ed in North Texas]

Once again thanks to everyone for their help.
Bob, Ed, So the load is 65gr 1F loaded first, then the 55-58gr of 3F-COW 50/50 mix? Then what kinds of filler-patches in which order? Thanks

Bob is using a Card wad, then a grease cookie or greased wool felt wad, then another card wad. My load would use a beeswax overpowder/filler wad, a grease cookie and a veggie wad over the grease cookie. You have to have a wad which will prevent migration of grease to the powder/filler and also to prevent the grease cookie/wad sticking to the boolit. Some use wads made from paper milk cartons for the over powder wad, it is impervious to grease. There are plastic wads out there too, but I haven't used them so can't comment on them, other than to say they obviously would be impervious to the grease too.

Have you bought a wad cutter and wad material yet? Or pre-cut wads? Here's a source of felt if you want to make your own greased felt wads instead of grease cookies (or buy them pre-made from any of the shooting suppliers who cater to the Black Powder clan):
http://www.durofelt.com./image_26.html

Ed

[curator]

I shoot both my Martini Henry MkII and Mk IV with CBC re-formed 24 gage brass. I intitially used black powder but got tired of being beaten to a pulp with 90+ grains of FFg and 475 grain bullet. I found the Lee .475-400RF boolit was a slip-fit in fired brass so I switched to 23 grains of SR4759, a wax wad and thumb seated Lee .475-400RF boolit cast from 2/3 pure lead, 1/3 Wheel weight metal, lubed with Lee liquid alox. I put a 5/8" tuft of dacron over the powder to keep it next to the primer. Velocities run around 1250-1300 fps but shoot great out to 100 yards. Great fun without bruises and I don't have to clean the brass. So far I have more than 18 reloads from individual cases because I am only repriming not sizing.