500 S&W water test

[warf73]

44man your post #37 got me to thinking.
How far away were these deer shot at? What was the beginning fps (I'm guessing you chrony at 10 feet from muzzle) of these boolits.

The reason I ask is you might be going slower than you think on impact, resulting in bad boolit performance.

Have you thought about shooting over your chronograph at 100 yards to see what fps your boolits are going at that range?

[7br]

I seem to remember watching a History channel show about snipers. They said the insurgents moved from 200 yards out to 700 yards. The sniper said that at 700 yards, the 308 would do more damage than at 200 yards.

[44man]

44man your post #37 got me to thinking.
How far away were these deer shot at? What was the beginning fps (I'm guessing you chrony at 10 feet from muzzle) of these boolits.

The reason I ask is you might be going slower than you think on impact, resulting in bad boolit performance.

Have you thought about shooting over your chronograph at 100 yards to see what fps your boolits are going at that range?

20 to 25 yards most. 1632 fps at 10'.
I am sure a longer shot would have done a lot more damage.
I do not have a problem with the .45 Colt at 1160 fps. It is better then the 45-70. I have dropped deer at 100 with the Colt and the .44.
If I just take longer shots so the 45-70 boolit has slowed it would do better and maybe if I take the velocity much higher in a rifle it would do better.
I don't have an answer, I see what I see. That is all I relate but get a lot of resistance for some reason. I would love someone to test exactly what I use and post without quoting books.
I would not want someone breaking both shoulders either, I like shoulder meat. Shoot deer behind the shoulder. If the boolit works, it does not need bone.

[jwp475]

No way that less velocity will do more damage with a rib cage shot into the lungs with the same bullet simply not possible no way no how

[warf73]

Ya at 20-25 yards that boolit is still moving really fast, that shoots my theory out the window.
My thought was if it was moving to slow it was acting like an FMJ and just poking threw the deer and not causing trauma to the animal( like you said nice holes in the lungs but no damage to them).

[Whitworth]

Ya at 20-25 yards that boolit is still moving really fast, that shoots my theory out the window.
My thought was if it was moving to slow it was acting like an FMJ and just poking threw the deer and not causing trauma to the animal( like you said nice holes in the lungs but no damage to them).

My favorite .500 Linebaugh load exits the barrel at less than 1,200 fps and it does ungodly damage to animal flesh and bone.

[subsonic]

No way that less velocity will do more damage with a rib cage shot into the lungs with the same bullet simply not possible no way no how

LOL!

What if one hits a rib and the other doesn't?

What if the bullet is too frangible for the higher impact speed?
Even a V-max will penetrate deep if you slow it down.
Even a decent big game bullet will blow up if the impact speed is high enough.

Too many what ifs that will prove that statement questionable.

[jwp475]

LOL!

What if one hits a rib and the other doesn't?

What if the bullet is too frangible for the higher impact speed?
Even a V-max will penetrate deep if you slow it down.
Even a decent big game bullet will blow up if the impact speed is high enough.

Too many what ifs that will prove that statement questionable.

All of the scenarios that you pose do not change the fact that the higher velocity will create the most wound trauma with the same bullet always has and always will

[warf73]

My favorite .500 Linebaugh load exits the barrel at less than 1,200 fps and it does ungodly damage to animal flesh and bone.

LOL I bet it does.
My thought was under 800fps at 100+ yards.
I've seen bullets act like FMJ's if going to slow.
What kind of penetration are you all getting in wet news print at 100 yards with those loads.

[Whitworth]

LOL I bet it does.
My thought was under 800fps at 100+ yards.
I've seen bullets act like FMJ's if going to slow.
What kind of penetration are you all getting in wet news print at 100 yards with those loads.

I don't know how deep in wetpack at 100 yards, but I know they will exit a moose at more than 100 yards and leave a trail of destruction!

[warf73]

All of the scenarios that you pose do not change the fact that the higher velocity will create the most wound trauma with the same bullet always has and always will

That is false to a degree, I've read way to may books on dangerous game were super fast loads didn't go deep enough to penetrate the animal to hit vitals. The bullet was moving so fast and it dumped its load in the first few inches on impact. But we are talking deer not cape buffalo

[warf73]

I don't know how deep in wetpack at 100 yards, but I know they will exit a moose at more than 100 yards and leave a trail of destruction!

Wounder if a 480 Ruger would do the same...... Whitworth you have any rouge mouse (moose even) around for me to try that out

[Whitworth]

Mouse or moose??

.480 will do the deed, no problem!

[warf73]

moose

[jwp475]

That is false to a degree, I've read way to may books on dangerous game were super fast loads didn't go deep enough to penetrate the animal to hit vitals. The bullet was moving so fast and it dumped its load in the first few inches on impact. But we are talking deer not cape buffalo

If one exceeds the velocity limits of the projectile then it will loose it's form and penetration will decrease, but the wound damage will be greater in the distance that the bullet traveled in the animal and/or test media


Of course the claim in this thread is that the faster bullet does less damage in deer. This of course is incorrect

2 bullets of equal weight, shape and material one shot at 1350 FPS the shot at 1650 FPS. The faster bullet has more momentum, creates more hydraulic pressure on impact as well as more energy

The faster bullet has more of everything, no voodoo here the faster bullet will do more damage I've seen it in the game fields over and over and all logic, common sense and science say the same thing

[7br]

All of the scenarios that you pose do not change the fact that the higher velocity will create the most wound trauma with the same bullet always has and always will

I will agree that the higher velocity round will carry more kenetic energy and momentum to the target. I will not agree that it will deliver more energy to the target. Too many variables. Shoot an empty pop can, then shoot a pop can full of water and see what happens.

Assuming 44man is not telling us stories, his observations are that higher velocity means small holes going straight through the deer. My guess is that the higher velocity bullets remain stable going through the animal. At a lower velocity, the bullet looses stablity and tumbles through the animal.

This would also jibe with what the snipers were seeing in Iraq and Afganistan at longer ranges.

In theory, there is no difference in theory and practice. In practice, there is.

[jwp475]

I will agree that the higher velocity round will carry more kenetic energy to the target. I will not agree that it will deliver more energy to the target. Too many variables. Shoot an empty pop can, then shoot a pop can full of water and see what happens.

Assuming 44man is not telling us stories, his observations are that higher velocity means small holes going straight through the deer. My guess is that the higher velocity bullets remain stable going through the animal. At a lower velocity, the bullet looses stablity and tumbles through the animal.

This would also jibe with what the snipers were seeing in Iraq and Afganistan at longer ranges.

In theory, there is no difference in theory and practice. In practice, there is.

The faster bullet will carry more direct applied pressure, more momentum, and more hydraulic pressure to the target all of 3 essentials to produce a large wound is brought with the faster bullet. You scenario is only true if the faster bullet has a smaller meplat and therefore can't apply the direct pressure to as large of an area in the target, but that is not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about 2 bullet of identical shape and material at 2 different velocities



Our snipers shoot SMK bullets and they expand and or fragment in flesh so there is no connection there

[wtfooptimax200]

Great read...I just wish that I had enough experience with shooting handguns at deer that I could add something to the conversation!

[subsonic]

If 44man was the only credible person I had ever heard say this, I might not be inclined to beleive him. But I have heard this before too from hunters with a lot of experience shooting game.

I cannot explain it, but I can tell you that *something* is happening.

Since there is not a lot of money to be made researching this, and 99% of all the jello shootings are perpetrated with jacketed bullets, nobody is doing the research to find out what's going on.

And even with all the money to be made, they still don't have commercial jacketed bullets figured out 100%.

I don't have the means or time to conduct an exhaustive research program around cast boolit terminal performance. But it's OK. I much prefer backstraps to clear jello anyway.

[7br]

The faster bullet will carry more direct applied pressure, more momentum, and more hydraulic pressure to the target all of 3 essentials to produce a large wound is brought with the faster bullet. You scenario is only true if the faster bullet has a smaller meplat and therefore can't apply the direct pressure to as large of an area in the target, but that is not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about 2 bullet of identical shape and material at 2 different velocities

I am tracking on identical projectiles with different velocities.

You are assuming that the bullets have the same orientation going through the animal which may not be the case. If the lower velocity bullet is going sideways through the animal, you may have increased the effective meplat by about 50% . IE,

Your scenario is only true if the faster bullet has a smaller meplat.

Exactly my point.

Another way to put it, which would cause more damage, an expanding bullet of the exact same weight and velocity or an non expanding bullet.

Couple of things to consider, the bullets exit the animal meaning that there is remaining energy and momentum.