500 S&W water test

[MajorJim]

applied energy in the animal? huh? sounds more like voodoo then science. if your 4570 isn't doin' the deed, i would blame shot placement first

Actually, it's not voodoo.

In the study of terminal ballistics, beginning with Fackler and continuing with Doctor Roberts (USN), there has been a ton of research on the issue.

Here is a sample: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

As a bullet slows down, it loses its stability, gyrates, and causes more tissue damage, thus creating a larger cavity. The trick is for that deceleration to take place inside of the animal.

Hollow points are a great example - they almost act like reverse parachutes, not only slowing the bullet down but creating a larger wound channel (sectional density).

A solid or high velocity bullet will certainly hit its mark, but if a pass through, will not stop an animal unless the hit is to the heart of the CNS. In other words, it is like bow hunting where the animal bleeds out. And a 1.5 inch arrow head is going to do more damage than a .45" hole. A bigger hole is always better when the goal is "terminal".

Spire point bullets have an advantage in that when they hit something or start to slow down, they tumble end over end. Of course, lots of ruined meat from that.

If you're interested, take a look at the tests done on the 6.8 SPC in comparison to the 5.56 and the 7.62.

Big difference between hole punching and killing.

[MaxEnergy]

Actually, it's not voodoo.

In the study of terminal ballistics, beginning with Fackler and continuing with Doctor Roberts (USN), there has been a ton of research on the issue.

Here is a sample: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

As a bullet slows down, it loses its stability, gyrates, and causes more tissue damage, thus creating a larger cavity. The trick is for that deceleration to take place inside of the animal.

Hollow points are a great example - they almost act like reverse parachutes, not only slowing the bullet down but creating a larger wound channel (sectional density).

A solid or high velocity bullet will certainly hit its mark, but if a pass through, will not stop an animal unless the hit is to the heart of the CNS. In other words, it is like bow hunting where the animal bleeds out. And a 1.5 inch arrow head is going to do more damage than a .45" hole. A bigger hole is always better when the goal is "terminal".

Spire point bullets have an advantage in that when they hit something or start to slow down, they tumble end over end. Of course, lots of ruined meat from that.

If you're interested, take a look at the tests done on the 6.8 SPC in comparison to the 5.56 and the 7.62.

Big difference between hole punching and killing.

i have read fackler and duncan macpherson. go back and read what 44man wrote. he says his boolits stop doing damage over 1300 fps. this doesnt happen in my experience

[subsonic]

It's odd, and I agree there are no facts to support it. But it's not the first time I've heard of it and Veral even mentions something similar in his "Cast with Jacketed Performance" book. He explains it as excessive cavitation reducing blood flow and encouragin clotting.

All I can say is that knowing how many deer 44man has kilt, I would not doubt *something* is happening that is causing his .45-70 to not kill as well as his .44

[jwp475]

It's odd, and I agree there are no facts to support it. But it's not the first time I've heard of it and Veral even mentions something similar in his "Cast with Jacketed Performance" book. He explains it as excessive cavitation reducing blood flow and encouragin clotting.

All I can say is that knowing how many deer 44man has kilt, I would not doubt *something* is happening that is causing his .45-70 to not kill as well as his .44

Acctually Veral says that too large of a wound channel kills slower with more tracking. Once one has achieved a large enough of a wound channel to bring the blood pressure to zero a larger one does not kill any faster.

The wound channel is created by 1-the amount of direct applied pressure, 2- the amount of hydraulic pressure (the hiogher the velocity the higher the hydraulic pressure) 3-the amount of momentum transfered

Duncan McPhearson's book is a great source of information on the subject. Since Mr. McPhearson is the only person to develope a math model that accurately predicts the depth of penetration and wound channel size in test media, I tend to believe what he has to say on the subject and so does Dr. Martin Fackler




As you can see by the diagram below that energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision

[subsonic]

Deer ain't made of test media.

What do those fellows say causes bullets or boolits to veer off course in soft tissue?

There are no nerves or blood vessels in test media and seldom bones, hair, sacks of air, or cavities filled with liquid.

I want to see more about that yaw, distance from muzzle, bullets going to sleep, and stability in meat.

[subsonic]

Why does a dead blow hammer transfer more force than a sledge hammer of the same weight and length?

[jwp475]

Deer ain't made of test media.

What do those fellows say causes bullets or boolits to veer off course in soft tissue?

There are no nerves or blood vessels in test media and seldom bones, hair, sacks of air, or cavities filled with liquid.

I want to see more about that yaw, distance from muzzle, bullets going to sleep, and stability in meat.

Read the book. Science doesn't change because of the target. Pointed bullets that fail to expand do not track straight in tissue or test media. Ballistics gelatin has been chosen as the professionals test media because it best simulates real tissue for bullets initial testing. All hunting bullets final testing is in the field. Bullets that are not Fully stable do not track straight in tissue. Bullets that veer off course, miss the vitals which is not a good thing

[saz]

http://www.glockfaq.com/item/554590_..._5_5IN_SS.aspx

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/554..._5_5IN_SS.aspx

The neat part is that MR says they have not shipped any!

I emailed to confirm whether they are truely 5.5" from the frame or cylinder, and they said none exist. They are all listed as .500 S&W as the caliber on those 3 sights. Kinda maybe not what we think they are?

I was already digging around for my credit card!

Yeah, I was thinking that it was a misprint but the item number is BFR500JRH. I can see a typo in the description that some kid getting paid minimum wage typed up, but not the Item number. Id love to see one. Would be one heck of a carry gun in bear country.

44Man,
"Now think about it. If a boolit goes 37" in wet paper but you shoot deer a foot wide, the extra penetration means nothing as does the energy loss. What counts is the energy applied in the foot wide deer.
If the bullet just dropped out on the other side of the deer after big damage, is it less dead then the bullet that went through 5 houses and a truck on the other side?
No, but the .50 BMG will leave you meat to pick up with a sponge.
Large, tough animals need more penetration but it still comes down to what the bullet did inside first.
Put up a long line of water jugs. A bullet goes all the way through and just splits the first jug but goes 30"--no good for hunting.
The next blows one jug and goes 30"---better.
The next blows 4 jugs and still goes 30", that will kill anything."

I agree with you on the subject of deer. Absolutely overkill with something that will penetrate 37" or so. But the desired results need to match the animal you are shooting at. I bought that 500 with an underlying intention- Kodiak/coastal Brown Bear. They are EXTREMELY tough and hard to kill at times. I have seen big brownies take shots and run away that you wouldnt think possible for any animal on earth to survive. In that case, penetration is key just to get to the vitals depending on the shot angle.

[375RUGER]

I think we need some test elephants and rhinos, that's the only way we're going to settle this.

44man, you are on the money with this one. Good case in point is the first Nosler Ballistic Tips. They were designed as a target bullet. When they started making hunting bullets with a poly tip, there were some that used their old stock of BT bullets and found they punched a nice clean hole thru a deer. This was partly Noslers fault because they called them all ballistic tips. Those target bullets penetrate deep but don't do a lot of damage.
We like bullets or boolits that expend their energy in the target and then penetrate deep enough to leave a place for the extra blood to spill out. The first couple of jugs filled with water will tell you about the bullets killing ability or ability to expand in flesh. And the extra jugs are just there to slow it down enough to recover it.
I like penetration as much as the next guy but it's the first 12" that tell the real story. Not long ago I shot 2 wild dogs at my place. The first one fell to my 110g 38special snubby, it was what I had when I pulled in the drive. First dog fell like a rock. I already knew what the potential was with this bullet/load. I had tested it in wet news print and was really impressed with the "wound channel" in the wet paper. the main reason for my testing was to make sure that I could depend on such a light bullet in case of 2 legged predators. Second dog was with 22-250 @ 250 yds as the rest of them were making for the safe zone which was a lot further out than they thought.
Penetration is prefered when all the targets cooperate and stand in single file.

[saz]

I think we need some test elephants and rhinos, that's the only way we're going to settle this.

Penetration is prefered when all the targets cooperate and stand in single file.

Too funny! Another point is look what a muzzleloader will do. The bull moose in my avatar fell to a muzzleloader loaded with a pure lead conical weighing in at 495grs moving at about 1050fps. That shot was taken at 115 yards and IMPRESSIVE penetration. Dead on his feet, just didnt know it yet.

I am hoping to have some real world testing when I get back. I will be leaving AK soon after and I am not going without a bear. And BTW, I have applied for my Kodiak tag. Fingers crossed.....

[44man]

i have read fackler and duncan macpherson. go back and read what 44man wrote. he says his boolits stop doing damage over 1300 fps. this doesnt happen in my experience

Not over 1300 fps exactly, just at about 1600-1630 fps. but I have no idea what each side of this does with a hard boolit.
I only can say what my 45-70 BFR does.
When I open a deer it is a hole through the lungs with very little trauma around the hole. Lungs actually look healthy except for the hole.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I’ve tested a lot of bullets in water by just using cardboard boxes placed end to end lined with plastic painter’s drop clothes from the hardware store for just a couple of dollars. It’s pretty easy to catch .45 ACP hollowpoints and .223 rounds, they penetrate about 20 to 25 inches. It took several attempts to catch a .45 Long Colt 454190 ww over 8.7 gr of Unique at 900 fps through my 7 ½” Colt SAA. Finally caught one. It measured 56 inches of penetration in water. I figure water about doubles the penetration I could expect from ballistic gelatin, but the only gelatin tests I have seen are at ranges where the good ‘ol boys from Speer bring their semi-trailer with a kitchen and a refrigerator out on the road. Too much work for me.
I’ve been to Fackler and Roberts seminars, they said bullets in the air are stabilized like a child’s top spinning on the floor, touch the side of the top at it wobbles and falls over. Bullets do the same thing when they enter a media like tissue. They wobble, rifle boolits usually swap ends because the base has more weight than the point. The location along the wound track at which bullets wobble is where we see the temporary cavity. I can’t remember if my 454190 @ 900 fps came to rest backwards or not. Usually the .223 bullets are somewhat fragmented, of course the new fancy hollowpoints are all opened up. I’ve written down the results and kept the bullets along with a card with data from the ammo in baggies for future reference. We get different ammo issued off the State bid and then what gets turned in to the property room at the law enforcement agency I work for. One 20 year old box of Cor-Bon .45 ACP resulted in 4 inches of penetration in water, the bullet completely fragmented.
44man, that is one fine looking boolit in your 1/16/2012 pic.

[jwp475]

Not over 1300 fps exactly, just at about 1600-1630 fps. but I have no idea what each side of this does with a hard boolit.
I only can say what my 45-70 BFR does.
When I open a deer it is a hole through the lungs with very little trauma around the hole. Lungs actually look healthy except for the hole.

This flies in the face of all known science. The faster the velocity the higher the hydraulic pressure and hydraulic pressure is a factor that plays a roll in creating the wound channel. There is absolutely no way that increasing the hydraulic pressure results in less damage. No way no how is that possible

[MaxEnergy]

i have to agree with you jwp457.

[subsonic]

I would say that we don't know what happens exactly on the nose of a non expandin flat point. I would like to see some high speed photog of some WFNs and LFNs hitting clear "test medium".

I am pretty sure the angle of spray off of the nose changes with impact velocity and shape of the projectile.

You guys do know about tissue spray working to cut other tissue, right?

Exactly why is it that a 12ga slug will penetrate several (like 30) feet of water very straightly, but a FMJ from a pistol at similar velocity will not.

Does it travel in an open cavity created by it's own spray?

[MajorJim]

A couple of my favorites:

MAJOR MISCONCEPTIONS
1. Idolatry of Velocity:
A widespread dogma claims that wounds caused by
"high-velocity" projectiles must be treated by extensive
excision of tissue around the missile path (34-40),
whereas those caused by 'low-velocity" missiles need
little or no treatment (41, 42). Two half-truths nurture
this error. The first of these, *Cavitation is a
ballistic phenomenon associated with very high velocity
missiles" (7), is easily disproved. The wound profile in
Fig 1 shows a very substantial temporary cavity produced
by a "low-velocity" bullet. This bullet, fired from the
Vetterli rifle at 1357 ft/s (414 m/s), has ballistic
characteristics typical of those used by military forces
in the latter half of the nineteenth century. It is the
same bullet used by Theodor Kocher for most of his wound
ballistics studies (23-27). It is obvious from this wound
profile that temporary cavitation is not, as popularly
belivved, a modern phenomenon associated exclusively with
projectiles of "high velocity.'

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf

And a little more color. Injury described as consistent with a high velocity missile injury was actually caused by a low velocity, large mass, washing machine. Dr. Lindsey's conclusion - treat the wound, not the bullet.


http://ad-teaching.informatik.uni-fr...2000-00012.pdf

[44man]

MajorJim, good info.
I see that with a round ball from a slow muzzle loader and even a .45 flintlock does horrible damage. The .54 round ball is akin to a .300 Weatherby with bone and tissue damage. I might even say it is a lot worse.
Lung tissue is flexible, not like water or gel, lots of air. Air will compress and water will not.
If a pressure wave not violent enough enters, it will move tissue away from the primary wound channel into a secondary that will return to position.
Increase the violence of the wave and the primary channel will get much larger.
Decrease the velocity and less tissue is moved out of the way of the boolit path resulting in a larger primary again.
Some think energy dump will instantly destroy the entire lungs from "ripple effect", not so. The right energy will make a large primary and the rest of the lungs are flooded with blood loss.
Take the lungs from a deer after a good energy transfer and wash them off. They look pretty good except for the huge primary damage.
Deer shot with the hard WLN and WFN from my 45-70 BFR through both lungs have nice pink lungs and little blood flooding.
These deer die from blood loss out the holes, not drowning in their own blood.
Deer shot with the right gun will spray blood from the nose and mouth, mine had clean noses. Just pretty holes through both pretty lungs.
But book learning says I am wrong.
I have shot 7 deer with this gun and hard boolits, lost 2 and none of the rest went less then 200 yards. Only a softer boolit put the rest shot with it down fast.
To continue this folly of using the wrong alloy and depending on a flat meplat has gone out of my playbook.
My next work is to make a perfect soft nose, hard drive band boolit.
I never posted this for arguments, I posted because I opened deer and inspected the insides to see what the boolit did. It has been consistent and I am too stupid for book larnin! That has led me astray.

[MaxEnergy]

MajorJim, good info.But book learning says I am wrong.
It has been consistent and I am too stupid for book larnin! That has led me astray.

dont be upset or bitter you can always go back to school

[44man]

dont be upset or bitter you can always go back to school

I like you!

[MaxEnergy]

I like you!

im falttered but im already spoken for - by a woman