Lead vs FMJ... Reloads vs Store ammo for fighting?

[MikeS]

I don't know where I read it but I do remember that I read it in the last week or so. It might have been with bullets in excess of 250 gr and max charges I don't remember. I DO remember that that the PSI listed for this mix up was something like 60,000 psi. SO your saying that seating depth makes no difference and will NOT increase the PSI of the load at all?
Ron

Ron, what he's saying if I read it correctly is that while yes, seating a boolit too deeply will increase the pressure, IF the round was loaded originally with a sane load, AND the boolit is seated slightly deeper than it should be, that the pressures won't be so high as to blow up the gun. Having said that, if the load is an overmax load to start with, and the boolit is pushed all the way into the case, it's possible to damage the gun. The 45ACP is a fairly low pressure round, and in any modern gun (made in the last 50 years or so) the steels used are much stronger than those used originally, so it's possible to overload a 45ACP without it blowing up the gun. That doesn't mean that you should routinely overload your gun, as that will damage any gun over time, but if you get a single round where the boolit is seated too deeply it's not going to create a dangerous situation. Now if you have a gun thats chambered for a higher pressure round, and you load it with a max pressure round, and seat that boolit much deeper than it should be, then you run the risk of blowing up your gun.

[35remington]

Karen, yes, that's correct:

NO Shooting Stars or Power Mags by Chip McCormick. Period.

Bad for aluminum frames!

ColColt, the seven shot Checkmates with the dimple and open front are fine with aluminum, vanadium, skankium, scandium, or byzantium frames. Tongue in cheek, a bit, but they're fine.

Let's correct some misstatements about followers:

Long before plastic followers existed, the standard length grip, seven shot magazine follower was the only type extant, and the aluminum framed 1911 existed long before plastic followered or full front skirted magazines. The long rear skirt prevented any problems, and did not ding aluminum frames. This same follower would be found in flush fit, six shot short grip 1911 magazines.

This follower is not bad for aluminum frames, despite what was said earlier about it being a poor choice. The reason is that its longer rear skirt has more spring coils bearing against it, preventing it from nosediving into the aluminum frame on the last shot.

Since I'm mostly correcting Joshua's post, I refer you to his pictures earlier. The ONLY follower pictured that will gouge aluminum frames is the type identified as the McCormick.

Reason? The short rear skirt has too few spring coils bearing against it. Allows it to tip forward. Try tipping a seven shot magazine follower forward......I invite you to try. You can't.

You also can't do this with a seven shot follower. You can with a McCormick follower in a Shooting Star or a Power Mag, found in eight shot full size grip, or seven short short grip 1911's:



The McCormick follower is the shape it is because it was designed to fit an eighth shot in a flush fit magazine. To make the room for the extra round, the skirt has to be shorter to let the follower get closer to the bottom of the magazine. The tradeoff for one more shot wasn't worth it, because even Chip McCormick will tell you, indirectly, that his follower isn't very good. The Power Mag Plus is proof of that last statement.

[hansumtoad]

Can you feed an empty case? Load one in the clip. Release the slide using the slide release. If it hangs... find a reliable gunsmith. If need be.,... Cylider and Slide in Nebraska. Once they feed empties... no more jams. PERIOD. After reading your issue, please mike the Over All Length (OAL) of the entire round both Lead and FMJ to the .001". Bet thre is a diff and either that or the feed lips of the clip is the culprit.

24 years in the gunsmithing business and a Navy Distinguished Master in Handgun. God knows how many .45's fired but its a bunch.

[hansumtoad]

BTW.... the aforementioned post was typed with the experience gained by using a Colt steel frame and Colt steel clips.....steel. No aluminum, plastic, carbon, blah blah blah..... And one othe thing. Sight picture, breath control, and squeeze. No need for a follow up shot....lead or FMJ. I guess I'm just old school.

If it has a prancing pony on it, a seven round clip, and a 230 grain round nosed slug, you dont need another gun.

[Josh Smith]

Karen, yes, that's correct:

NO Shooting Stars or Power Mags by Chip McCormick. Period.

Bad for aluminum frames!

ColColt, the seven shot Checkmates with the dimple and open front are fine with aluminum, vanadium, skankium, scandium, or byzantium frames. Tongue in cheek, a bit, but they're fine.

Let's correct some misstatements about followers:

Long before plastic followers existed, the standard length grip, seven shot magazine follower was the only type extant, and the aluminum framed 1911 existed long before plastic followered or full front skirted magazines. The long rear skirt prevented any problems, and did not ding aluminum frames. This same follower would be found in flush fit, six shot short grip 1911 magazines.

This follower is not bad for aluminum frames, despite what was said earlier about it being a poor choice. The reason is that its longer rear skirt has more spring coils bearing against it, preventing it from nosediving into the aluminum frame on the last shot.

Since I'm mostly correcting Joshua's post, I refer you to his pictures earlier. The ONLY follower pictured that will gouge aluminum frames is the type identified as the McCormick.

Reason? The short rear skirt has too few spring coils bearing against it. Allows it to tip forward. Try tipping a seven shot magazine follower forward......I invite you to try. You can't.

You also can't do this with a seven shot follower. You can with a McCormick follower in a Shooting Star or a Power Mag, found in eight shot full size grip, or seven short short grip 1911's:



The McCormick follower is the shape it is because it was designed to fit an eighth shot in a flush fit magazine. To make the room for the extra round, the skirt has to be shorter to let the follower get closer to the bottom of the magazine. The tradeoff for one more shot wasn't worth it, because even Chip McCormick will tell you, indirectly, that his follower isn't very good. The Power Mag Plus is proof of that last statement.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

And there is some disagreement in the 1911 community at large about the standard 7 round split followers being used in the 1911 aluminum frames.

I generally advise folks with aluminum framed pistols to stay away from all split followers simply because some (not all, but some) do not stay put as you state.

One of the worst offenders is the cheap-o Triple K. I bought one to induce malfunctions and sure road forward with the last round!

I've had this happen with split followers using weak magazine springs.

Please don't get me wrong; I love the split type. I use them to feed TC loads all the time, and my favorite for this is actually an old tapered lip surplus mag.

I simply not willing to give advice that may destroy a pistol, so I make a general blanket statement that no split followers, only skirted, should be used in aluminum framed 1911 pistols.

It's sort of like telling folks that an R43 plug should be used in a Chevy V8. The R45 burns hotter and may burn through the piston. Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Do I run a hotter heat range? You betcha'. Do I recommend others do the same? No.

Here is but one of many discussions on the subject:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=322738

I will continue advising against anything but skirted followers in aluminum 1911 pistols, especially Kimber.

Feel free to disagree; seems that's all we 1911 people do unless we're debating the Beretta or Glock people!

Regards,

Josh

[Karen]

In researching info on my Dad's 1911 that he carried in Viet Nam, (he bought it from the Navy, it was still serving proudly on a submarine when Dad retired from the Army) I came across an article written in the 1930's ? The officer was cursing newer commercial 8 round magazines and how John Browning tested for 11 years until he perfected the 1911 with it's 7 round magazine. Apparently he tried for years to get that 8th cartridge to function but it never worked.
Also, one of the old Colt models prior to the 1911, maybe the 1902? He tested slide serrations on the front of the slide, but determined that it was too dangerous to have a soldiers' hand there. So he designed serrations only on the rear of the slide on the 1911. And I see some new expensive 1911s with the serrations on the front again.

I suppose the same old issues keep coming up.

[Jammer Six]

The M1900 had front cocking serrations.

"The ingenious, but simple, M1900 was the first semi-automatic pistol produced in the United States, and is the linear ancestor of, and design basis for, the Colt Government Model .45."

Jerry Kuhnhausen, The Colt .45 Automatic A Shop Manual, (McCall: Heritage-VSP Publications, 1990), 6.

Page seven shows a picture of the M1900, which looks like it was over six inches long, with a double link locking system and front cocking serrations.

I agree. Your hands don't belong out there. There's a little hole that bullets come out of, and I keep my hands away from it.

[mroliver77]

Here is what a .45 to the hand looks like.
http://www.thegunzone.com/nd.html

And a real sweet one!
http://negligentdischarge.com/leg.html

On topic well kind of. I have two 1811. One a Springfield Armory Inc "Loaded" that a fellow tried to polish the ramp with a Dremel. It went bad for him real quick! He took it back to the gun shop and wanted it replaced via the warranty. sigh The owner is a good guy and gave him a decent credit for it against another new gun.

Shop owner replaced frame with an Essex frame using all the rest of the S.A. parts. He then used the botched frame for a .22 rimfire 1911. It did not need the ramp intact to work. Anyhow this gun is an accurate shooter. It does not like the Chip mags I have! I also have a Colt 1991A1 "Commander" that is a sweetheart! It will function with the Chip mags but is not dependable. I have four Colt mags. They work well with my H&G #68 loads.

I shoot a bit of IDPA and get in some odd positions and can end up limp wristing the gun at times. I have had a couple malfunctions with the SA but none with the Colt. I picked up some USGI mags new in wrapper at a gunshow foe $7.50 each. These things perform flawlessly every time! For carry these are what I use now. If you watch them feed it is just like the book shows. Imagine that. From what I read the Checkmate mags and therefore the newer Colt mags made by Checkmate are as close to GI design as your gonna get.

[fredj338]

I look at the issue of handloads vs factory for SD/HD as more negatives than positives. WHy; cost? One 50rd box of SD ammo should last you at least 2ysr & that is if you swap out your ammo annually. Consider most of the better JHP are NOT available to the handloader, why? Consider most powders available to the handloader are NOT flash supressed, again, why?
Would I use handloads fo SD/HD if that was all I had, sure, but you can bet I would be able to articulate why.
Lead bullets for long term storage is not a good idea either. Bullet lube migration & this wierd habbit of lead bullets getting slightly larger over time can cause reliability issues. For long term SHTF storage, I have no issues w/ handloaded JHP. If it comes to that, the laws are going to be a pretty much what ever you make them @ the moment.
BTW, all I run in my various manuf 1911s are 8rd mags. They all run fine. I like frint serations, but it does require discipline to se them. I see many new IDPA shooters doing unsafe things press checking their 1911s using front serrations.

[mpmarty]

Three 45acp pistols and two use the Chip 8 round mags with no problems the third is a little bitty Taurus millenium pro with its staggered ten round mag with plastic followers. The 3" Taurus will sometimes fail to feed with a nose down cartridge holding the slide open I believe this is due to worn mag springs but I may have limp wristed the little bugger too. The two full size 45s are all steel one an RIA the other a Taurus which is going away when I find it a new home.

[waksupi]

Three 45acp pistols and two use the Chip 8 round mags with no problems the third is a little bitty Taurus millenium pro with its staggered ten round mag with plastic followers. The 3" Taurus will sometimes fail to feed with a nose down cartridge holding the slide open I believe this is due to worn mag springs but I may have limp wristed the little bugger too. The two full size 45s are all steel one an RIA the other a Taurus which is going away when I find it a new home.

You must be lucky with your McCormicks. I have three, and had malfunctions on ever one. I contacted the company, and was informed they were only intended to be used with specific bullets, and the malfunctions were my fault, because I always have my magazines loaded. I told them I just happen to carry one or the other of my 1911's every day, and I never considered if I may need more than one magazine, I should have to stop and load another. All in all, Chip was pretty rude about it, and would not stand by his product. I got new springs and followers from Brownells, and am back to 7 shot loads with zero malfunctions.

[Jammer Six]

All in all, Chip was pretty rude about it, and would not stand by his product.

Yikes.

I'm glad I only bought one. I ended up just throwing it away when I bought 30 Metalforms.

[Russel Nash]

not to thread drift here, but...

now you guys have me wondering about my 1911 magazines.

HUH!? I have a bunch of the Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags. One 1911 that I have is notorious for puking on SWC's. I'd love to get it running right. I have one Wilson 47(D?) mag, and one ACTS mag. It would be great if it all it took was switching mags.

[ColColt]

Long before plastic followers existed, the standard length grip, seven shot magazine follower was the only type extant, and the aluminum framed 1911 existed long before plastic followered or full front skirted magazines. The long rear skirt prevented any problems, and did not ding aluminum frames. This same follower would be found in flush fit, six shot short grip 1911 magazines.

This follower is not bad for aluminum frames, despite what was said earlier about it being a poor choice. The reason is that its longer rear skirt has more spring coils bearing against it, preventing it from nosediving into the aluminum frame on the last shot.

I have to agree with 35remington on this. The Colt LW Commander existed decades before the advent of plastic followers as did metal followers with the 90 degree leg with no skirt. Had there been a severe problem with them digging into the feed ramp I feel sure someone would have advised Colt long ago. To date, even though used little so far, my CM GI mags have not scored or scratched the feed ramp of my SW1911SC.

[35remington]

Joshua, you are correct; if you buy junk, consequences that are undesirable occur.

However, your blanket statement that open front, seven round full rear skirt followers are all bad for aluminum frames and not recommended is not the case, and thus my comment.

You did not bother to note any exceptions, and it was important to correct what you had written, or those here may have made the wrong conclusions from your post. Perfectly acceptable magazines with desirable characteristics may have been avoided had someone taken your post literally. In fact, the most suitable magazines of all for 1911's might have been passed over if your advice was taken at face value.

That would be a shame.

It is important to distinguish that seven shot magazines conforming to standard specs, which was all that were available for aluminum frame 1911's for many years prior to the "new" follower types, caused no harm, and did not deserve to be lumped into this category.

Still don't. Checkmate, Metalform, Cylinder and Slide, and a whole bunch of others make non dinging open front followers, so it's not like they are hard to find. Even old GI magazines will not harm aluminum frames, provided they haven't been run over by a truck.

These magazines with their seven shot skirted followers caused no harm to lightweight Commanders, and did not deserve to be lumped in with whatever junk may be found.

Agreed?

It is relatively simple to determine how well the follower is held in place. If in doubt, test yourself.

[35remington]

Russel, if you know exactly how it's puking, it's likely you can fix it. By repetitive failure and showing the same symptoms each time (location of cartridge when it jams, I mean).

[Jammer Six]

However, your blanket statement that open front, seven round full rear skirt followers are all bad for aluminum frames and not recommended is not the case, and thus my comment.

I don't know much about the magazines mentioned, but I have seen many, many small 1911s with problems.

So after reading Joshuas comments about the magazines (which I read with interest, because I had never heard those theories before) I didn't come to the conclusion that the followers were bad, I simply added it to the list.

Yet another reason to avoid small, aluminum 1911s.

[Josh Smith]

Joshua, you are correct; if you buy junk, consequences that are undesirable occur.

However, your blanket statement that open front, seven round full rear skirt followers are all bad for aluminum frames and not recommended is not the case, and thus my comment.

You did not bother to note any exceptions, and it was important to correct what you had written, or those here may have made the wrong conclusions from your post. Perfectly acceptable magazines with desirable characteristics may have been avoided had someone taken your post literally. In fact, the most suitable magazines of all for 1911's might have been passed over if your advice was taken at face value.

That would be a shame.

It is important to distinguish that seven shot magazines conforming to standard specs, which was all that were available for aluminum frame 1911's for many years prior to the "new" follower types, caused no harm, and did not deserve to be lumped into this category.

Still don't. Checkmate, Metalform, Cylinder and Slide, and a whole bunch of others make non dinging open front followers, so it's not like they are hard to find. Even old GI magazines will not harm aluminum frames, provided they haven't been run over by a truck.

These magazines with their seven shot skirted followers caused no harm to lightweight Commanders, and did not deserve to be lumped in with whatever junk may be found.

Agreed?

It is relatively simple to determine how well the follower is held in place. If in doubt, test yourself.

Hello,

I can agree with this.

I guess I've just seen way too much undesirable happen with the 1911 because of folks either not thinking about what they're saying or other folks taking it wrong.

I've seen aluminum ramps gouged by folks who use the cheap mags mentioned or McCormicks after other, supposedly knowledgeable people said it was OK.

Also, I've seen problems caused by some of the wider, sharper hollowpoints, but didn't bring that up here as it wasn't being discussed.

If I read correctly, the OP found a gouge in the feed ramp that could have been caused by a hollowpoint.

Neither do I believe in 8 round mags for the 1911 unless they were designed from the ground up to be 8 round mags. I've found that the Wilson 47D usually causes the first round to nosedive into the feedramp at a steep angle. It still feeds in most pistols but after a few chamberings the bullet has set back too far to be safe.

Additionally, I don't see how this could be good for an aluminum frame.

I figure if one wants an 8 round mag, one should probably go with one designed to be an 8 round mag, like the Cobra or Wilson ETM.

After trying Mec-Gar and A.C.T. mags, I really liked them -- until one cracked the feed lips and the other blew the floor plate!

I depend a lot on my magazines. I live in the country and the woods in which I live produce a lot of critters who are sometimes stubborn about not destroying property even though I'm nice about it, throwing old biscuits and such loaded with fat out into the wilderness when the winter gets particularly tough.

Therefore, I need something I can rely on.

The ones I've personally found to work best are a tapered feed lip surplus mag, non-marked, and an identical, maybe aftermarket, with slightly weaker spring and hybrid feed lips.

Both were in a gift basket a former Navy competition shooter's family sent me through his family after his passing. They weren't gun people. The Colt National Match was gone, but the box was still there. I found someone who shot the same circuit as he did and the box went that way.

The man's name was Mr. Orlando and I sometimes mention it in hopes that someone will remember him. Someplace I still have the plaque from his ship's door.

But I digress.

Those, and Wilson 47 7rnd mags, are the ones that I've found I like. They take abuse.

No luck with Shooting Stars until I replaced their crappy followers with military followers. They worked perfectly then!

Cobra mags are in another class, being 8 round mags.

I was wanting to try the whole gamut of good mags, but you see, I'm a lefty. I ran the whole gamut of ambi safeties. I bet I bought every one out there. The only one I didn't try was the Ed Brown -- never got to it as I really like the Caspian.

As well, I didn't get to the Wilson Bulletproof as it came out when my experiments were winding down.

I did publish the results on the web and will do so here if you're interested at all.

But I digress.

Because I want to be absolutely clear and not have folks misunderstand me, I do recommend skirted followers and solids or expanding-full-metal-jacket-type bullets.

However, I agree with you as well.

It's just a CMA thing.

Not all folks who own guns are gun people, so I just try to make things as simple and straightforward as possible.

Regards,

Josh

[Bret4207]

Not to engage in thread drift, but did I ever mention how nicely my Smith '17 works?

[35remington]

If a guy experiments with all the options in magazines, he's done all he can to ensure the gun will work properly in that regard.

I made a comment about the undesirability of sharp edged hollowpoints in post #39, so I did address the issue. Easy to lose that information with all the posts here.