Is a .358 boolit too big for a .3545 bore?

[G__Fred]

Thanks Trubo1889!

As I am learning it would make since to me that a good initial seal is a tad more important than the fit in the barrel (as the bullet cross the area from case (no-rotation) to the barrel, (mandatory rotation)). I do realize that both will affect accuracy but a "solid start" seems to be a foundation item to the fit and glide down the lands.

[357shooter]

Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly. Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move.

If that were the case, we would get gas cutting and leading all the time. Which in fact doesn't happen. There was another thread discussing if gas or the bullet opened the crimp, the consensus was it's the bullet. The gas may overtake the bullet later in the process, that usually does produce leading. But not before it begins to move. IHMO

[918v]

Physics disagrees with your position. So does Paul Matthews.

[tommygirlMT]

918v --- I know you --- you were banned from the Glock Talk forum --- and you were banned from the handloads.com forum which is a forum that I am also a member of and I remember you --- and they havn't even threatened to ban me over there for speaking my mind and saying exactly what I mean --- I have been warned on this forum --- you and your trollish fight picking behavior will not last long on this forum where even I have to be extra careful in order to survive and although many would say I like to pick a fight and cause a ruckus I am nothing compared to you

As for physics --- you should know that almost nothing happens "instantly" in physics --- nothing at all on the Newtonian level --- You have to get down to quantums and strings before "instantly" is an honest fact of the matter not an exaduration of a high speed event

Secondly --- engineering dynamics and strengths and properties of materials is the practical application of physics to the question at hand and discussing it in those terms instead of pure Newtonian physics provides a higher quality discussion where time proven equations and stress yeild charts can be brought into the discussion allowing the greater wealth of accumulated industrial and scientific engineering to be brought into the discussion --- the situation under discussion is effectively that of a piston in a sleave within a stepped bore where the sleave serves to seal the rear of the bore under pressure expansion which propegates at sificiantly high enough speed that hydrostatic shock wave analysis best suits the problem for a good fit solution

If you are not willing to discuss the question on that level and simply choose to throw a profanity and personal attack laden temper tantrom then I will be unable to discuss this with you since as I stated I cannot engage you on a lower level or I risk problems with the moderators myself on this forum --- If you are willing to discuss the situation at that level I am willing to debate you

Next move is yours --- 918v

[357shooter]

Physics disagrees with your position. So does Paul Matthews.

This thread is about a 9mm pistol, which uses smokeless powder. Are you talking Black Powder?

[BAGTIC]

If a loaded round will chamber then try it. Start slowly.

A .308 rifle barrel will normally take a ..311 bullet. That is .003 oversize, in the same range you are discussing.

I commonly shoot .315+ bullets in my .32 Magnum revolver. They work great with no leading. Just work up your load using the OS bullets from the get go.

[mpmarty]

If it chambers it isn't too large. In a pistol like yours the barrel will "size" the boolit to the correct diameter.

[918v]

This thread is about a 9mm pistol, which uses smokeless powder. Are you talking Black Powder?

I'm talking about smokeless powder.

[918v]

918v --- I know you --- you were banned from the Glock Talk forum --- and you were banned from the handloads.com forum which is a forum that I am also a member of and I remember you --- and they havn't even threatened to ban me over there for speaking my mind and saying exactly what I mean --- I have been warned on this forum --- you and your trollish fight picking behavior will not last long on this forum where even I have to be extra careful in order to survive and although many would say I like to pick a fight and cause a ruckus I am nothing compared to you

As for physics --- you should know that almost nothing happens "instantly" in physics --- nothing at all on the Newtonian level --- You have to get down to quantums and strings before "instantly" is an honest fact of the matter not an exaduration of a high speed event

Secondly --- engineering dynamics and strengths and properties of materials is the practical application of physics to the question at hand and discussing it in those terms instead of pure Newtonian physics provides a higher quality discussion where time proven equations and stress yeild charts can be brought into the discussion allowing the greater wealth of accumulated industrial and scientific engineering to be brought into the discussion --- the situation under discussion is effectively that of a piston in a sleave within a stepped bore where the sleave serves to seal the rear of the bore under pressure expansion which propegates at sificiantly high enough speed that hydrostatic shock wave analysis best suits the problem for a good fit solution

If you are not willing to discuss the question on that level and simply choose to throw a profanity and personal attack laden temper tantrom then I will be unable to discuss this with you since as I stated I cannot engage you on a lower level or I risk problems with the moderators myself on this forum --- If you are willing to discuss the situation at that level I am willing to debate you

Next move is yours --- 918v

Your post is off topic. I have not thrown a temper tantrum, or uttered profanity, or anything of the sort. You have mischaracterized my responses in this thread. I suggest you stick to lead and gas, instead of psychology.

Simply stated, gas travels faster than lead. If the lead slug is large enough to seal the system from the outset, no gas cutting will occurr. If the slug is undersize, then you are ballancing the acceleration of the slug, obturation of the slug, and the speed of the gas. Gas is more likely to win if the slug is grossly undersized or too hard.

[canyon-ghost]

If the lead slug is large enough to seal the system from the outset, no gas cutting will occurr.

...at normal velocities, yes. There are some experiments at top end loads that prove even with proper bullet fit, it is possible to push a powder charge fast enough to get gas cutting within the barrel. Of course, accuracy goes out the window so, the top end loads prove almost nothing except that there is extreme velocity gas cutting.

[918v]

...at normal velocities, yes. There are some experiments at top end loads that prove even with proper bullet fit, it is possible to push a powder charge fast enough to get gas cutting within the barrel. Of course, accuracy goes out the window so, the top end loads prove almost nothing except that there is extreme velocity gas cutting.

Would that be in the case of pushing too soft of an alloy at too high of a pressure thereby causing the alloy to fail?

I can see someone running a soft 115gr bullet at 1400 FPS out of their 9, but why?

[tommygirlMT]

Your post is off topic. <snip>

You made the false claim that “Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly” --- When you were called on this false claim you made the second mistake of claiming that “physics” backed up your false claim and in so doing added another false claim to back yourself up when caught in your first false claim --- It is analogous to using a bigger lie to cover yourself when you get caught in a smaller lie --- NOTE --- I said analogous to a lie not that you lied --- a lie is a false claim that the claimant knows to be false at the time of making the false claim --- I cannot prove that you knew that your claim was false at the time you made it so I cannot claim you lied --- but you did make a false claim and when you got called on that false claim you tried to cover with an even bigger and more ludicrous false claim --- For you to expect not to be called on the even bigger and more ludicrous false claim was wishful thinking at best

<snip> I have not thrown a temper tantrum, or uttered profanity, or anything of the sort. You have mischaracterized my responses in this thread. I suggest you stick to lead and gas, instead of psychology. <snip>

You are correct that so far you have not done so as of yet on this thread --- You do --- however --- have a past reputation that I am personally aware of in several cases and I wanted to make the conditions under which I was willing to debate you utterly and completely clear including under which conditions I would not engage you --- On another forum with looser rules I would have no problem getting “down in the mud” if necessary --- I cannot do that on this forum --- they wont allow it --- thus I must maintain the language and tone of a debate

<snip> Simply stated, gas travels faster than lead. If the lead slug is large enough to seal the system from the outset, no gas cutting will occurr. If the slug is undersize, then you are ballancing the acceleration of the slug, obturation of the slug, and the speed of the gas. Gas is more likely to win if the slug is grossly undersized or too hard.

Now I can and do agree with that statement --- and to my knowledge it is consistent with “physics” --- it is not the same statement as you originally made --- and that you tried to cover up with a false and even more ludicrous “physics backs this up” claim --- along with “name dropping” to deflect to someone else rather then putting forth solid scientific “physics” information to back up your position yourself

<snip> Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly. Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move. But not if the bullet is big enough to seal the freebore before ignition. <snip>

*(color coding added and not in your original post)

Instantly --- This claim is absolutely false and absolutely ludicrous --- as I previously stated:

<snip> As for physics --- you should know that almost nothing happens "instantly" in physics --- nothing at all on the Newtonian level --- You have to get down to quantums and strings before "instantly" is an honest fact of the matter not an exaggeration of a high speed event <snip>

7000 FPS --- I would like to see the data that proves that --- or at least indicates it is so --- not saying it is a false claim but I dont accept it at face value

Overtake & Seal --- it is clear from your two choices of words and how they are used that you are talking about the gas traveling around the boolit --- commonly know as gas cutting --- Im “binding down” the meanings before proceeding to tackling the larger statement in which they are used

Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move. But not if the bullet is big enough to seal the freebore before ignition. --- Before it even begins to move? --- Really? --- Some proof of this claimed fact is necessary --- and what is this about freebore? --- If this is taking place “before the boolit even begins to move” as you claim then unless you are breach seating your boolits in the bore and loading the case separately afterwards at least the bottom few drive bands of the boolit are still inside the case neck and the gas has to “overtake” that “seal” between the boolit and the case neck before whether or not the boolit fits the freebore or throat of the gun and seals it is even involved in the discussion

Again I emphasis that I wish to debate you on these points and conduct myself accordingly and if you wish to engage at a lower level I will be forced to abandon the discussion since I will not be able to reply in kind and maintain myself on this forum --- I await your rebuttal/redirect --- I step down --- The podium is open for you now if you wish to take it

[turbo1889]

Ouch !!!

[918v]

tommygirl,

You are making a big deal out of nothing, dredging up ancient history, assasinating my character because you don't have an argument.

You are trolling.