Paper Gas Checks

[geargnasher]

Yes, I got a chance to fire some more loads two weekends ago, the details are out in the shop right now, but I haven't forgotten this. I was waiting to post until I got a chance to mount some optics on my Marlin, the Pars Planitis in my eyes is flaring badly right now and I can't shoot anything better than about 4" at 50 yards right now, even with an aperture, but here's the short version:

Using RX7 and 8/10 grain Dacron, I was able to get 1580-1600fps and my dad was still get the same accuracy I was getting with some of the best original workups (borrowed his 66-yr old eyes), but it fell apart at 1650. The fastest load we tried was 1731 average and the groups were more like patterns, but still no leading. The Dacron, slow powder, paper check and Felix lube are a wonderful combination, but the boolits are way too soft for these speeds. I'm using air-cooled wheel weights aged to about 13.4 bhn, maybe I should cast up some more of these 311041s with water-quenched 50/50 and let them get to aging, see if I can't get the accuracy window up to at least 1700 fps. What the paper checks have shown me so far is a vast improvement over plain-base and checkless boolits in this particular gun, but the soft alloy has it's limits!

I got a Weaver scope base, just need to get the right size rings for this old Tasco I have and I'll be back in business for a while. I can still hit a Coke can at 50, but golf balls are impossible right now.

Gear

[brstevns]

Thanks for the update, it looks promising!

[Outdoors]

Fascinating stuff, Gear.
Looking forward to hearing the details.

Pat

[Joe504]

Any update on this?

[geargnasher]

I finally got a scope mounted on my Marlin so I could continue testing (eye problems flaring up again), and had just a handfull of PGC rounds left to get it zeroed. Haven't taken the time to load any more as I mired myself in another project, but I'm not finished updating this by a long shot, since the project does show a lot of promise. Stay tuned...

Gear

[Lonerider]

This has been and intersting thread for me. I have enjoyed reading Gear's and Longbow's post on the paper check. Here is my question, I'm thinking I would like to experiment on my 45-70 guide gun with these. I will be using Bruces, 462-465 GC mould...w/ ww's.

So for the sake of discusion, using vanilla folders, for my .462 bullets.....
1. what size do the disks need to be punched out
2. what size does the die need to be?
3. and what diameter does the body/base forming die need to be?

I would be very intested in what you fellas may suggest.

lonerider

[geargnasher]

You don't need a forming die. Cut the check discs large enough that they will fold around the shank, but give yourself enough clearance that they don't overlap the base driving band. I use a gasket punch set from Snap-On tools and use the closest size, 1/2" might work for you.

Elmer's aerosol spray glue works great for sticking the discs to the boolit bases, just lay out 10-15 discs at a time on waxed paper and mist them with glue, be careful not to blow them over with the spray. Stick a boolit base down on the tacky disc, center it as best you can, and when you have ten done, start running them through your base-first sizer like normal. The glue should be tacky enough to adhere to the sides of the shank. Watch that the check is centered well enough not to overlap the base band, you can tell as it starts to fold around the base when you first start the boolit in the sizer die.

Assuming you're using a Lyman 45 or 450, take apart the stop plunger and reassemble it with the stop rod turned upside-down, that way you can push the "I" plunger in the die up far enough to eject the boolit completely from the "H" die, otherwise the lube that will get between the check and the "I" plunger will adhere and you will tear the check off the boolit base trying to get it out of the die.

If you're using a push-through, you will need to preform the checks somehow, the only way I've done that is to use my Lyman 45, the same sizer die I would for the boolits, and a top punch that would fit inside the sizer with just enough room for one thickness of manilla folder all around.

Gear

[longbow]

Well, I finally got out to the range to test my paper gas checks... or more correctly paper half jackets.

Dismal failure is the only way to say it.

Not only were they a pain to wrap but accuracy at 50 yards was nonexistent. These were loaded on .303 over 19 grs. IMR4227.

Oh well.

I will have to try Gear's cardboard gas check idea next.

Longbow

[JIMinPHX]

Gear, have you noticed any wear issues in your barrel from the paper checks? I know that when polishing metals, especially chrome, you are supposed to use soft cotton cloth & not paper towels because the fibers in the paper are often hard enough to scratch the metal. I was just wondering if that applied here too. I've never paper patched or paper checked a boolit, so this is all new to me.

Thanks,
Jim

[geargnasher]

Paper IS abrasive, but much less so than J-words. I'm not sure I have ever heard of anyone wearing out a barrel due to the use of paper jackets. I haven't done any chamber/throat slugs since starting this little experiment, but I did firelap this barrel due to some ancient rust pitting a while back with only 400-grit compound and it's slick as a whistle and mirror-bright now after about a hundred rounds of paper-check boolits and Felix lube with Carnauba wax.

My only concern with the material I used for these checks is that it is a very high-solids material, meaning it has a lot of clay or similar subtance use for filling up the pores and making the manilla stock stiff and shiny. This filler probably has more abrasive properties than other types of paper do, but the contact area of the paper check to the bore is so small I can't see it really wearing much in my lifetime. Also, the paper check comes out the muzzle as a puff of fine dust, only really visible when the light it just right and lights up the little fibers as they float in the air, so I have a theory that the check gets turned inside-out as it passes across the case mouth and follows the boolit into the throat. Heck, it may be powder before the boolit moves, I have no way to tell. All I can say for sure is it cured the leading I was having in the first inch or two of the barrel of this particular gun and allowed me to shoot with consistent bore condition almost indefinetely, although it didn't significantly extend the accurate velocity window of PB boolits by a whole lot. With a Hornady check the same boolit in this gun can be shot 500 fps faster with 1.5 moa accuracy and only minimal antimony wash for as many as 20 rounds before accuracy degrades, so the copper is superior for performance.

My little paper check experiment was not intended to replace the copper or aluminum check at those performance levels, but it has been an interesting experiment and I'm going to continue to make all my plinking ammo for this gun with them just because I can't beat how cleanly and accurately they shoot with a soft boolit even with a copper check at 1600 fps.

Gear

[felix]

Gear, try bouncing back and forth between jacketed and paper WITHOUT cleaning. See if accuracy remains the same, 5 rounds paper with its best load, 5 rounds condom with its best load, 5 rounds paper with its best load.. Groups should remain the same, and barrel should be statically clean ready for the next whatever. The clay in the paper should eradicate the copper, and hopefully vice versa (not likely especially if the group round count goes up from 5). ... felix

[softpoint]

I would still like to know if anyone has tried patching just the base and first band?

a year or so ago, i made some checks out of Butch's linen patches, cut with a gasket punch. They worked well, but were a little trouble to keep centered on the bullet. I swaged them onto plain based boolits in my lubrisizer, and the patches just covered the first band. I used these in 45/70, and pushed soft boolits to about 1700 fps. with 3031 powder, and got no leading.

[longbow]

I made half jackets for NOE 316299 by turning down the driving bands:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=109049&page=2

post #37.

These were turned to allow paper patching so gave same fit as a PP boolit should but kept the front driving band.

They didn't work for me.