Veral at LBT's ideas on hunting bullets?

[Canuck Bob]

I read alot that Veral writes and he is convinced that WFN bullets are deadliest at reduced velocities. He has a formula using the meplat diameter but basically for a 44 bullet he puts the best range around 1600 fps. Weight has to do with penetration. In my case he recommended app. 1600 fps with a 300 WFN for optimum killing power. It was in the context of developing a good camp protection round for a 444.

Just thought I'd ask what others think of his idea. On another forum there are some happy hunters who agree with his ideas.

I notice that many handgun hunters use loads like these and report outstanding results. Anyone ever drop the hammer on a moose or elk with loads like these?

[RobS]

With the proper alloy this equation would work well. I would go with WW-Lead with some tin or equivelant that is water quenced so as to make a boolit that is ductile yet has some expansion (not a lot) to assist the already large meplate in order to slow the boolit down which will create more dwell time once the boolit makes contact. Should make a good wound channel from 50 yards and beyond.

[MtGun44]

There is some evidence, although the mechanism defies logical explanation that I have
heard, for optimum penetration coming at 1600-1800 fps with a Keith or LBT or similar
FP boolit. Higher and lower velocities seem to actually reduce penetration, which is not
expected.

The CorBon Penetrator 405 non-expanding jacketed FP .45-70 has been documented in
substantially out penetrating all of the conventional African calibers, loaded with soft points
and with RN FMJs. Whether this is some anomoly or an actual and consistent effect is not
yet proven, IMO. There is some evidence that the FPs go straighter and yaw less than
RN designs, and also the higher velocity may cause yawing instability in meat, too. It is
possible the since the factory African loads are almost 100% loaded with RN designs, that
this may account for the experimental discrepancy. Until we see .460 Wby and .458 Win
Mag & Lott ammo with FP FMJ ammo, we will not have solid info. It may be as simple as
the hydrodynamic stability of a RN vs FP design in a semifluid evironment like meat, with
possibly the RN yawing and reducing penetration where the FP stays straight and drills on
through. Still unproven, but there is a significant body of field reports where the FP designs
have done spectacular penetration at moderate velocites. There are reports of African
PHs with considerable experience with the serious 'elephant gun' calibers in Cape Buff
being quite surprised at FP .45-70 penetration using ammo from several suppliers,
Cor Bon and Garrett are notable.

There is absolutely no question that 1600-1800 fps heavy weight FP designs like Keith
and LBT will penetrate extremely deeply, exiting in most shots on most game. Very few
are ever recovered. Even handgun velocities in the 1000-1400 fps range gives amazing
penetration.

Bill

[leadman]

I shot an elk at 75 yards with the Lee 310gr RFN in 44 cal. out of a Ruger SBH revolver. Velocity was only 1,150 fps and it penetrated all the way thru broadside. With a heavy boolit I think high velocity is not needed within reason.

This load would allow hits pretty consistently on a 12" plate at 200 yards. This was off the bench with iron sights.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I talked to Veral Smith about this very subject about 3 years ago. This was a lengthy discussion as I'm sure any of who who have spoken to him on the phone know, and you shouldn't call him on a pay phone unless you have a big bag of quarters with you.

We were talking specifically about .44 and .45-70 type bullets. I can't remember if he said it was his personal tests or Ross Seyfields personal tests with 45-70 with WFN 405gr bullets at 1600-1800 fps yeilded 48" of penetration in wet newsprint. The same bullet at 2150 from a .458 mag yeilded only 44" of penetration. This stuck in my mind.

The reasoning was that the bullet with the higher speed was actually setting up a pressure or shock wave in front of it that was impeding it's penetration. The slower bullet did not create as big a pressure wave in front of it and as a result still had sufficient momentum to penetrate deeper. This is because the momentum was not being bled off as fast by trying to overcome the shock wave of smaller size than the faster bullet generated. Makes sense?

It is common knowledge that these types bullets from a 45-70 loaded to 1800 fps wil go completely thru virtually any animal on this planet. I read a story and then verified it by actually talking to Dave Scoville that he had shot a cow elephant with a .475 Turnbull M86 and the bullet went in between the eyes, and exited at the base of the tail. They measured 11 feet of wound channel total and never found the bullet !!! Solid brass 400gr with a .375 meplat.

I think it is safe to say that unless you are hunting the big 6, a .45-70 load or for that matter a .44mag load that is running 300-400gr at 1600 fps will kill anything made of meat in the US and probably do a pretty good job of some of the larger japanese cars too.

Whereas I don't have any direct personal experience shooting elk, I have read many times where a 300gr slug from a .44 revolver has gone clean thru and elk at 1000-1100 fps. From a rifle the same slug would probably go thru three of them.

It constantly amazes me how one of the first centerfire cartridges (138 years old now)can still perform right up there with the new stuff. Cast lead bullets appear to perform much more effectively on game than many jacketed bullets do so I figure we all should just cast all our own Boolits from now on!

Randy

[onesonek]

I agree with you about the quarters Randy!!
In addition,,,, from what I gathered from him. How he actually came about it, I'm not certain. I can only hazard a guess it comes years experience and meticulous taking of notes on observation's. Likely both personal and those of others using certain designs in cast boolits.
But what he told me he uses for a formula is as follows,,, meplat diameter divideded by 4 X impact velocity. He said it is best to keep that number between 100 and 130 with FP cast at your expected distance.
It sounded like he tends to water drop most everything with ww alloy, resulting in a boolit that won't deform much if any when if bone is struck. That's not saying he aims for bone in all cases, or on purpose unless he needed a anchoring shot.
He said he got far less run response, and most critters just stood there, or take a step or 2 wondering WTH, then the collapsed in a matter of a few seconds after impact. But noted the formula tends to work better with .40 cal. and above, with non expanding type boolits.
I could go into detail of his thoughts on the how's and why's of the matter, but I won't. I will say, a lot of it makes sense in a bio mechanics sort of way. I can't say I have tried his methods as of yet on purpose, but had witnessed it some years back where the methodolgy of it wasn't the understanding or objective. It just sort of turned out that way. In that case thinking back, there seems to be some merit in his formula.

[btroj]

Main thing I took out of it is the idea that more velocity does not alway equal more Seems counter intuitive but it does seem to work.
Was not aware of the meplat/4*impact velocity formula. Will need to investigate that one and see where my current hunting loads fit.
If nothing else Veral has increased the overall knowledge on cast by increasing discussions. Like him or hate him he has brought up many points for debate.

[bearcove]

your choice should do the job on anything up there.

[44 flattop]

I've killed quite a number of elk with .44's, mostly handguns but about a 1/2 dozen with .44 rifles. 300's at 1100 to 1200fps will always exit in my experiences, 270's at 1200 also always exit. But then from a rifle a 300gr at 1400fps will break bones and exit!

I'm a big fan of a good sized bullet at a moderate velocity for shooting game with the best results. For hunting I use either straight WW's or 75/25.

44

[PAT303]

I remember when I first started casting having a box filled tightly with news print to catch my boolits and the lee 90grn swc's out of my 303 doing 1400fps sailed right through it.My 8x57 has no trouble sending Lee maximums doing 1800fps through both shoulders on camels,the lightest weighing a tonne easily. Pat

[303Guy]

PAT303

May I ask what the weight of those 8mm boolits are? (And the style and alloy?)

[DIRT Farmer]

Reguarding onesonok's comment, about moderate volicity. When I started hunting deer with round ball speed was the name of the game and I spent a lot of time tracking deer I had shot. In a campfire conversation an old timer whose family had never went to cartridge guns told me to drop my powder charge in a fifty to give a volicity of around 1200 to 1300 fps. All but one deer (20 +) that I have taken loading this way have looked up at the shot, some have gone back to eating before stifning and falling, never moving more than one or two steps. My question would be is there an optimual speed and use more weight for penatration?

[Lloyd Smale]

I wont argue here with veral. Hes not here to respond and ive argued enough with him where he could. Ive shot at least as much game as he has with cast bullets and probably bigger animals to boot. Ive seen no diffence in killing power between lfns wfns and swcs with equal hits. As a matter of fact i just dont see how a guy can really make that determination. Every animal you shoot dies a bit differnt. Ive shot deer in the vitals with 300 mags that have run off and died. As to penetration, ive done as much penetration testing as anyone. Sure its not identical to animals but it allows you to compare alloys bullets and velocitys. In our testing peak pentrations comes at about 1300 fps and definately starts dropping off at 1400. That is even more prevelent with wfns compard to lfns and swcs with there smaller metplats. To increase pentration past what your getting at 1400 you need to increase bullet weight. Anohter problem you run into is alloys. Harder is lighter so you loose there and theres just not an alloy thtats tough enough to not deform when hitting bone at speeds any faster. At least not every time. Deform a bullet in any way and penetration suffers. Now if you want deforming bullets like a soft point hp ect thats differnt. there you have to ballance penetration with expansion and it some cases that extra speed does help especially at longer ranges. But veral doesnt push expansion. Hes one that believes in bullets holding there shape and pentrating. Like my thoughts verals are just his opinion. Hes not a god. Theres many here that have more actually field experince as he does and just lack his ability to draw a following like some kind of cult leader. Dont get me wrong i too think that veral has helped casters. Hes casting book is hands down better then the lyman or any of the ohter outdated books and 20 years ago he probably was first word in casting knowlege but many of his ideas have been put to rest buy guys here. QUOTE=Canuck Bob;1254573]I read alot that Veral writes and he is convinced that WFN bullets are deadliest at reduced velocities. He has a formula using the meplat diameter but basically for a 44 bullet he puts the best range around 1600 fps. Weight has to do with penetration. In my case he recommended app. 1600 fps with a 300 WFN for optimum killing power. It was in the context of developing a good camp protection round for a 444.

Just thought I'd ask what others think of his idea. On another forum there are some happy hunters who agree with his ideas.

I notice that many handgun hunters use loads like these and report outstanding results. Anyone ever drop the hammer on a moose or elk with loads like these?[/QUOTE]

[44man]

Veral does make good points but I don't agree with a hard boolit that fast unless distance to the animal is far or the animal is large.
I just hunt deer and have had very, very poor results with HARD 320 to 420 gr WLN and WFN boolits at over 1600 fps from my 45-70 BFR.
RobS said it the very best!
The boolit MUST upset, slow down and gain dwell time because the flat nose creates a pressure wave that moves tissue out of the way in a large secondary wound channel that collapses after boolit passage. Opening a deer with a double lung shot from a hard boolit has shown intact lungs with a primary hole only. They die but go to far with a poor to no blood trail.
Taking the same boolit down to about 1350 fps will turn internals to mush with instant kills and or huge blood trails.
Going down to about 1150 fps again slows death and I feel a little expansion is again needed to widen the primary wound channel.
Deer hit with 1150 fps actually show much more internal damage then one hit at 1630 fps.
Full penetration is always best but depending on the velocity, distance and size of the critter, you must make the boolit do the work while inside before exit. One alloy does not fit all.
Over expansion is no good and is much worse.
Now the good part, LBT's are not that hard and can deform, upset a little and turn in an animal if one side of the nose gets deformed.
They average 15 BHN and will upset enough at 1600 fps to enlarge the wound channel. They are softer then what I use at 1350 fps.
All these velocities have merit and work as long as it's affect requirements are matched to what you hunt and the average distance.
The Cast Performance LBT's are great with good accuracy and work over a good range.
I use harder because most of my boolits are PB and all I need is a softer nose.
If I used the LBT alloy, a 50-50 or 75-25 for the nose and my alloy for the rest of the boolit, my velocity range would increase without an accuracy loss.
My results are from deer only and you will not believe how easy it is to poke a useless hole through them or blow them to pieces with just an alloy change.
Shooting into soaked phone books and paper with a .475 using a 420 gr LFN Buffalo Bore gave 21" of penetration.
My 420 gr WFN went 37".
The BB had to go to a 440 gr to reach 33".
A 400 gr XTP only did 12".
A BB 410 only made 19".
A .44, 265 gr RD went 33".
What does that tell you for hunting?----NOTHING AT ALL!

[mdi]

Excellent discussion. Now if I can just remember the details...

[MT Gianni]

Lloyd when you talk velocity vs penetration are you talking muzzle vel. or impact?

[fisheadgib]

Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges wrote a blurb on his wesite about some penetration tests that he did comparing the 45-70, 458win mag, and the 458 lott. In wet newsprint, the 45-70 at 1500fps penetrated deeper than the other two with the same bullet weight at higher velocities.

[warf73]

Shooting into soaked phone books and paper with a .475 using a 420 gr LFN Buffalo Bore gave 21" of penetration.
My 420 gr WFN went 37".
The BB had to go to a 440 gr to reach 33".
A 400 gr XTP only did 12".
A BB 410 only made 19".
A .44, 265 gr RD went 33".
What does that tell you for hunting?----NOTHING AT ALL!

Info like this tells me one thing, if any of these loads were accurate they would have been deadly on alot of game here in the US.

We have all seen great hits on animal and the said game runs off 20 or 200 yards and dies. You find it and cut it open and the boiler room (heart / lung cavity) complety exploded into small pieces. Then next time get a so so hit and the animal falls were it stood, and upon opening it up the heart is fine but the lungs were junk. That being said each animal is just that an "animal" and each will die differently no matter how hard we try to blow them out of there skins.

[Canuck Bob]

Thank you all.

Very informative to a Canadian because we can't handgun hunt but I did hunt deer years ago with a Ruger 44 auto rifle. It was deadly at my closer ranges. I'm interested by LBT thoughts but not completely sold by any means. My experience is with 444 Hornady and the old Remington 265 bullets at higher speed on moose.

My last moose was a big bull and at 175 real paces on a cutline the bullet through and throughed on a slight quartering broadside. I remember pushing 3 fingers into the exit wound and the moose ran about 20 yards before piling up dead.

I'm still wondering if a 300 gr cast at 2000 fps in a 444 wouldn't whack pretty hard?

[PAT303]

PAT303

May I ask what the weight of those 8mm boolits are? (And the style and alloy?)

Mate they are right on 250grns checked and lubed.I only use soft alloy,WW/pure lead mixed 50/50.I sometimes squench them out of the mold but mostly AC them. Pat