22 CF for cast bullets?

[okiecruffler]

Okay, I've figured out my next barrel. I want a 22 that I can cast bullets for, the ultimate in cheap reloadable shooting. I'm leaning toward the 218 bee, mainly because the hornet brass annoyed me so much when I was playing with it. So between the Bee and the Hornet, which one is easier to deal with brass wise? Ballistically they look about the same with the Bee using just a tad more powder. Or, a bit more exotic, how difficult would it be to size a 22 Jet with a .224 ball? Any other suggestions?
I posted this over on the speciaty pistols board and basically got the response that I's be crazy to even deal with 22 cast bullets. But now that I'm a master caster of 357 bullets, how hard can it be? So what are you guys playing with?

[Trigger44]

Casting .22 cal bullets is not a lot more difficult than say .357. I have been doing both since 1959. I would suggest the 222 Rem as a great place to start. I loaded this cartridge for years with 12.0 gr 4227 and the Lyman 225415 sized to
.225. Lub was a good quality wheel bearing grease. Talk about cheap 22 ammo.

I currently load for the .22 Hornet and custom built 22 BR. Most of my shooting is target these days, so I slill use the slightly messy wheel bearing grease. Never
is leading a problem, nor loading in a cold garage which is a problem for the firm lubs. I cast 22 bullets in six different designs from three mould makers. For .22 bullet casting I think you realy need to have some tin content, say 3-5%.

I shoot the Hornet with sub sonic loads to 2500 fps with a 55 grain gas check.
Twist on the Hornet is 1:12" so the 55 grainers shoot very well. The 22 Br seems to like most loads with the slower powders like H4895 and 3031.

Hope this helps

[357maximum]

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w224rc.html

[felix]

The 222 case size is extremely friendly for a wide powder burn speed range, making that one case size a do-all for all purposes. The smaller cases tend to be more finicky to load properly in this bore size. Also, the 22-250 is surprisingly good for its oversized powder space, probably compensated for by its long sloping case design. ... felix

[carpetman]

Okiecruffler---I have no experience with the Bee,the Hornet,or the Jet. What I do have experience with--felix is right on. With .222 it seems to be harder to find a load it wont shoot than one that it will. Same same with 22-250. Now my .223 is a different deal. I tried everything and couldnt get it to shoot cast---but it is great with jacketed---probably my most accurate gun. I use the 95 grain RCBS and I have used it with and without the gas check---in .222 or 22-250 it does great either way. You want cheap---I'd say go .222. Small dose of Unique and they perform well. I would like to try a hornet,but don't have one.

[Bass Ackward]

I have had several Hornets and K-Hornets over the years and 222 Remmies. The Hornet case is just so sensitive to .1 grain increment changes because of it's size, that temperature change and slight seating depth changes results in more than that. I never had reproducible results that I could be proud of with several models I owned.

While I never played much with a standard Bee, the Mashburn version of that is a crackerjack and would be my choice if I needed a rimmed case version. But dies will cost you. Most problems associated with Hornets and 223s are related to throat sizes. The Hornet has blown more rifles than any other standard factory cartridge. So throats were increased in size to cut pressure. Same with 223s as some manufacturers worry about using military ammo in them. The bolt on the good Savage 223s that I checked went flop closed on a RCBS 60 grainer for the old Savage High Power with a .228 bullet. So I built my 223.

Throat size is either going to make or break ya no matter what you get. And unlike some larger bore diameters that have backgrounds with cast, you only have .224 or .225 sizers until you jump to .228. So you really need .225 to work or it will cost ya more as it cuts out factory options for you. Twist rates are also something to consider. The best throat in the world will be severely limited if married up to a 7 twist.

The 222 is probably the best factory option for all things considered if you can still get one. HTHs.

[w30wcf]

My experience with cast in a .22 Hornet and .22KHornet (both '43 Winchesters) has been very good. Bullets used have been the NEI 45 gr. and Lyman's 225438 and 225415.

Accuracy rivals what both rifles will do with jacketed. My alloy is w.w + 2% tin air cooled. I find that I can run these gas checked bullets over the standard charges of 4227 or 680 (2,500-2,800 f.p.s.) and they shoot very well.

For a load that duplicates the old .22 W.C.F. I like 3.3 grs. of 231 for 1,550 f.p.s.

One thing I did is have new sprue plates made that have .07" sprue holes. It made no sense to me (accuracy wise) to have the Lyman plate with the "one size fits all" large sprue on a .22 caliber cast bullet.

With the .07" sprue hole, casting with one mold at a time, I can cast at a rate of 300 match grade bullets an hour with the single cavity molds. The sprue solidifies very quickly and the fast casting rate (5/minute) keeps the mold up to temperature.

The NEI mold did come equipped with a smaller sprue hole in the plate.....around .10". I eventually had a new sprue plate (.07" sprue hole) made for that mold as well.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Bullshop]

OK here are a few targets fired from a few different hornets. As you can see the hornet will shoot. I would like to point out that our purpose for the hornet is as a hunting round for which it is superb.
We make no effort whatever to turn our hornet rifles into match target guns. We look for hunting grade accuracy that is cheap and easy to make. By easy to make I mean we do not sort or weigh boolits but just take them as they come. Yes this will allow an ocasional wild flyer but for the most part if the casting technique is fluid and consistant so too will the boolits be consistant.
I can not disagree that the 222 is an easy cartridge to get to shoot good, but with each shooting its best loads I cant get a 222 to shoot any better than a hornet. One of the best cast shooters I have seen is Jr's 788 in 223. It shoots many different boolits with many different powders without complaint. Just as with any gun/caliber you just have to shoot it enough to get a feel for what it will like. I have found that some barrels like fast powders while some like slow powders but seldom do thier best with both.
BTW these are fired at 100yds as measured with a Bushnell 1000.

Most recently I have been working with PB molds and getting very good results. The goal here is cheaper shooting without giving up power or accuracy. Mostly working with modified gc molds as there arent many readily available PB molds.
If anyone is interested I will post some favorite loads. This is getting kind of longish and I have lots to do. BTW BS Mom is home with baby girl, Hope Charity Congiolosi and all is well.
BIC/BS

[Bodydoc447]

When you have a minute to spare, I'd like to know more about the Hornet loads. Thanks in advance and, again, congrats. Glad Momma is doing well, too.


Doc

[HORNET]

Bullshop,
Congrats on the new diaper filler. Hope her and BSMOM continue to do well. We were missing hearing from the brains of your operation.
Please post those pet Hornet loads. Got any good way to get BLC-2 to burn behind a 55 gr?? Shows promise but very dirty and slow .
IIRC from talking to the old gentleman (now sorely missed) that taught my dad casting, he said that the .218 Bee was much easier to find a good load for and less sensitive than the 22 Hornet, but that the brass was still very variable and not generally very good.
I missed a chance at the only used REM 700 Classic in .221 that I've ever seen. They don't seem to be around much. Always figured that would be very good and cases could be made from .223's to get enough wall thickness to neck turn for a good fit. Not really that big a deal since I already have a Fireball bbl for the Contender if I ever get it scoped and have enough other .22 CF's to keep me busy.

[Jack Stanley]

I've just started fooling around with a NEI forty-five grain gas check mold . So far the only powders have been AL-8 and Universal Clays in the .223 Remington case . The 788 that is shooting this ammo seems to like it pretty well . Progress is slow in finding a load I can use all the time 'cause of other projects getting in the way . The rifle may just be my plink on sunday morning rifle but that's ok too

Jack

[DLCTEX]

Congratulations on the safe and healthy arrival of Miss Hope Charity, I'm a little envious as I have 5 sons, no daughters, wife finally gave up and accepted her role as the sole female until the daughter-in-laws came along.

[Bullshop]

Thanks to all for the well wishes. Yes BS Mom is the brains, she just married me for the free boolits.

Here are some favorite hornet loads. Remember you may have to refine these for your guns but they are good places to start.
As I said I dont try to make a bench gun from my sporting hornets so we dont segregate boolits at all as its just too much tado for the volume we shoot. We also do not weigh powder, all charges are thrown. Yea we might do a little better by weighing but again too too. Our accuracy goal is to keep grouping tight enough to stay on a rabbits head at 100 yards. Thats what our hornets are for, small game within 100 yards or just a bit over. Sure you can do that with a good accurate 22 lr, but the 22lr dont have the smack of the hornet on tougher critters like wolverine or coyote (pay check).
1- A+
case - RP
boolit - cbe 55gn or Lyman 225415
primer - RP 6 1/2
powder 10.6gn Scott 4197 (now AA 2015)

2 A+
case - RP
boolit - 55gn cbe or Lyman
primer - RP 6 1/2
powder - 7.6gn H4227

3 B
case RP
boolit - 55gn cbe or Lyman
primer - RP 7 1/2 or 6 1/2
powder - 5.7gn IMR 800 X
note - if milder primers are used up powder .1 to .2 gn

4 B+
case - WW
boolit - 55gn cbe or Lyman
primer - cci # 550 spm
powder - 12.5gn Thunderbird T - 680
note - chrono - hi - 2444 - lo - 2439 fps

5 B
case - RP
boolit - NEI #2 45gn
primer - RP 7 1/2
powder - 5gn Alliant Steel
note - AMV - 1800fps

6 A
case - RP
boolit - cbe or Lyman 55gn
primer - Federal #100
powder - 8.5gn IMR 4759

7 A++
case - WW
boolit - NEI #2 45gn
primer - RP 6 1/2
powder - 6.5gn WW 630 (no more 630- bummer!!!)

8 A+
case - WW
boolit - NEI #2 45gn
primer - Fed #205
powder - 8.5gn H 4227

9 B+
case - RP
boolit - NEI #2 45gn
primer - Fed #100
powder - 9gn XMP-5744
note - AMV - 1890 fps

10
case - RP
boolit - Lyman 55gn
primer - FEd #100
powder - 10.5gn AA XMP 5744

11 A
case - WW
boolit - Lyman 55gn
primer - Fed #100
powder - 11.5gn WC-680
note - use hotter primer in cold weather

There that should keep ya busy for awhile! We have a few loads logged for jackets too if needed but I prefer to spread the gospel of boolits.
Enjoy!
BIC/BS

[okiecruffler]

Well, my thought is for a cartridge that burns as little powder as possible, so I wasn't really considering the 222. The 221 was kinda in the back of my mind. The 357 max necked down was intriguing enough that I had to run out and form a few cases (one of the advantages of having a collection of reloading dies, I always have the die I want to play with). Definately worth looking at. In fact I have a batch of 360 DW brass that I might run thru the 221 dies to look at. Had forgotten about the K-hornet, that might solve some of my brass problems. Decisions, decisions....

[carpetman]

okiecruffler--If a .222 burns too much powder,you are looking for an air gun.

[okiecruffler]

Across the board the 222 burns almost 2X as much powder as the hornet, granted while giving quite a bit more horsepower. But I already have a 1/2 MOA 223 barrel for horsepower. What I'm thinking toward is a plinker barrel, something that will shoot minute of rabbit out to 100yrds, with minimal recoil, noise and cost.

[felix]

Ok, let's be different. Pick the case in the realm you are already seeking, and up the bore to 25 caliber. That should eliminate or at least reduce your powder sensitivity enough to make the choice more friendly all around. ... felix

[okiecruffler]

Actually, I had been giving some thought to the 25-20. Might still go that route. Just kinda liked the challange of working with those 22cal bullets. Do they make a 17cal mold?

[felix]

Okie, I suggest you cool on this recursiveness, and wait until you are a little more concrete on what you are trying to obtain. ... felix

[Bullshop]

Actually, I had been giving some thought to the 25-20. Might still go that route. Just kinda liked the challange of working with those 22cal bullets. Do they make a 17cal mold?

Okie
Have you thought about the 22 Cooper? I have one of the origonal Cooper rifles from when they first started up in Stevi Montana. Most full power loads push a 45gn boolit to 2000 or a 55gn to about 1800. One of my favorite loads is with the NEI #2 and 3.3gn 800X. Thats over 2000 shots per lb of powder. With a wcww boolit I shot it through 5 1 gallon milk jugs lined up and it went through the plywood backer behing it. I have the energy figgures for most 22 wmr ammo and they can be exceeded by a good margin with the Cooper. I have a Lyman mold I had Buckshot shorten to eliminate the gc. The Cooper shoots this 50gn PB boolit extreamly well with full power loads making it the cheapest cartridge I have ever loaded for. Figure the cost of 50gn ww metal, 3.3gn powder, and a small primer. The brass is rather expensive at .50 ea but it seams indestructable. After I hit 50 reloads with my first batch I quit counting. At that it adds .01 per shot. Prolly about $1.25 or so for a box of 50 is that cheap enough?
I also have a Marlin 94 in 25/20. Its perty cheap to shoot too but not like the cooper. I just got a pair of old Win molds for an 87gn fnpb, one solid and one HP. I have not tried the HP yet but the solid nose plain base shoot as good as I have been able to get this gun to shoot at about 2" at 100 yards.
Most shots will cluster closer but the outsiders are 2" or just over a tad.
I was just reading an old Handloader checking the equipment list from one of the Coors shoots in Colo. I was surprise to see one fella shooting a hornet with 87gn boolits. Must be sumpthin to that ya supose?
BIC/BS