I am confused...PB over 1,000 FPS and no leading??? HOW????

[Southern Shooter]

I was under the impression that velocities over 1,000 FPS in cast bullits would surely begin to lead. Please look at the reference below. Could this be the case? I am confused.


http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=24

"The mid-1950s were another fertile period for the .38 SWC with the introduction of the K-framed S&W Combat Magnum and the Ruger .357 Blackhawk. Velocity was the selling feature of the cartridge and Lyman chose to capitalize on that feature, while simultaneously capturing those features that Keith and Sharpe had espoused in their designs, with the 150 grain 358477 (cataloged in 1957). With this bullet it was easy to achieve 1500+ fps from the .357 Magnum and 1000 fps from a .38 Special, and do both with superb accuracy and no leading. For my money, the original 150 grain 358477 is the finest .38 Special bullet ever designed. Loaded over 5.4 grains of Unique, it generates 982 fps from a 6" K-38 Masterpiece with exceptional accuracy."

The BIG question:
How do you get a Plain-based bullet to travel over 1,000 FPS without leading? I am especially interested in doing this with .357 Magnums at 150-180 grains and .44 Magnums at 240-250 grains.

Thanks

[Blammer]

1,000 fps is not really hard, actually it's easy.

First off, slug your cyclinder and bore, then make your boolit about .001 over the bore dia.

Use a good lube and you're pretty much set.

44mag and 2400 for me with any plain base of 240-250gr wt is easy to get more than 1,000 fps and no leading in my RSRH.

[noylj]

A bullet with the proper fit and lubrication can go 1800fps. For a revolver, one needs a bullet whose diameter is such that it fits the cylinder throats snugly but still slides through and is, in general, 0.001" over the barrel groove diameter. Then, you need the alloy to match the velocity and a bullet lube that performs at the pressure generated.

[Blackhawk Convertable]

I would start with water dropping to get the hardness of the alloy up.

[Shiloh]

Boolit fit is key.

My velocities are less but have take .357 up to about 1300 with no leading.
Nothing to brag about here, but this was with range scrap water dropped. you could still dig your thumbnail into it.

Shiloh

[Harter66]

I've hit 1100 in my RBH 45 Colts with fairly soft bullets and my version of Barry Darrs lube. 1400 from my 357s same alloy and lube. I've even seen 1800 with plain based in my 32 Rem and 06' with no to minimal leading. Fit is the all important factor.

If you read through the "stickies"you will find many,many,amazing feats.
I'm amazed when I go back and read through them at just how dumb I was the last time I read through them.

[Wally]

I used a load in my Ruger .45 BHK that was near 1,000 FPS...the barrel looked very clean with no apparant fouling---I'd just brush it out and clean with solvent & a patch. Last week I put it on an Outers Foul Out (OFO) machine...the rod was coated with a gray substance quite evenly--seems that it was leaded up more than I thought. Never found any pistol that i've fired with lead bullets that didn't have some fouling using the OFO machine.

[thx997303]

I've pushed 1800+ fps with my 45-70 and plain based boolits without leading.

Now, whether or not they were accurate is still a mystery. I didn't have a proper rest.

They did shoot as well as I could offhand.

The alloy was 50/50 ww/pure air cooled. The lube was LLA/JPW tumble lube.

And with my 9mm, I get a chronoed 1100 fps without leading, and I know this load is accurate at 100 yards.

Nothing special there either. Done it with both WW air cooled and 50/50 ww/pure air cooled.

Again, LLA/JPW lube.

[Doc Highwall]

With the Lyman 358429 and linotype in a 357 mag handgun I have shot just under 1400 fps.

[9.3X62AL]

I start using gas check designs exclusively at some point after 1200 FPS to 1400 FPS, depending on firearm/caliber/bore condition. Fit is critical, as said above. 1200-1250 in 9mm isn't tough with plain base designs, and 45-70 runs to 1300 FPS all day long. The alloy used isn't super-hard or exotic, just 92/6/2--or the equivalent of half Lino/half lead. I really DISLIKE having to mine the lead in a barrel, so I opt for a gas-checked boolit sooner than a lot of folks might.

[Bret4207]

I was under the impression that velocities over 1,000 FPS in cast bullits would surely begin to lead.

And they will.....unless you fit the boolit to the gun, fit the load to the gun and fit your lube/alloy/temper/crimp/etc. to that combination. If you go back to the early days of the 357 and factory loads you'll read about speeds in excess of 1500 fps, an astounding feat at that time. You'll read about "gilt edged accuracy" too. But, you also need to recall that in the mid 30's when the 357 came out a Hornet that held 2.5" day in and out at 100 yards was an exceptional rifle. "Gilt edged accuracy" at that time was a rifle approaching the "mythical" 1" at 100 yards mark. No one had a rifle that could do an inch all the time. Gilt edged for a steenkin' peestol or revolter was holding the black at the 25 or 50 yard mark, and they were usually lobbing WC or RN at 650-750 fps. No one ever spoke of groups approaching anything near an inch at 50 yards, not that I ever read anyway and I've hit all the major works from around 1900-today. So remember that times and expectations change. Elmer, Mattern, Naramore, Hatcher, Crossman, Fitzgerald, McGivern, Dunlop, Baker, Pacmayer, Riechenbach all talked about fouling to one degree or another. I think Elmer mentioned having to resort to mercury ("quicksilver") in a few cases.

I've gotten off on a tangent haven't I? Fit the boolit to the gun. Work from there. I've taken the 357 up into the 1400 fps range with straight WW and the 358477 and few others. It can be done, but if you ignore the basics you can have that leaded monster we all dread.

[mike in co]

i shoot my srh 44 rem mag at about 1100 fps with 300gr group buy boolits. no "leading"..the bore is bright ........i don't clean the bore, i do clean the cylinder of powder and lube.

the ability to remove mirco specs of lead from the micro pores of a bore with electrolisys...does not imply "leading".

mike in co

[x101airborne]

I am absolutely a passenger on this train. I purchased all gas checked molds for my 357, 44 mag, etc. Only after getting disgusted with purchasing gas checks, have i been searching for used molds of plain base design. I recently purchased plain base: 260 gr. 44 cal, 270 gr 45 cal, and 170 gr. 357. Boolit fit, proper alloy, proper powder. RAIN ON GAS CHECKS!!!!

[MtGun44]

I shoot large amounts of Keith type and other good designs in magnum handguns at up to
about 1400 fps using air cooled wwts and SOFTER (down to 8 bhn) with zero leading
and fine accuracy in Rugers and S&W pistols.

Fit (.001 to .002 over groove diam) good lube (try NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue) and
good designs any REAL Keith, most LBTs and many Lee designs have worked for me.

What calibers are you interested in?

1000 fps is a 'gimme' in most guns. I can recommend some specific boolit molds and
help you to achieve the full power magnum "miracle" which is no miracle at all, just the
folks who don't succeed at first assume that they have all the answers and because
THEY didn't do it, that it must be impossible. If you know how, it is not hard at all.

[RobS]

A blanket statement that you can't shoot cast over 1,000 fps is simply stated by a person who doesn't have the understanding on how to get it done, probably don't cast their own, and never understood the relationship of cylinder throat to groove diameter and sizing a bullet to fit within those realms.

Can a person go over 1,000 fps with a cast boolit???........................well a quick search around here on the forum and you'll quickly become aware that this is a given if the bare bone basics are covered.

[dualsport]

A lot of good suggestions above. About all I can add is the game of using homemade checks, actually wads. I'm having a brain fart and don't recall the correct name, but basically you cut a disc from a milk carton or other material and seat the boolit on that. Opens up another can of worms to play with. I've read it can increase the useful speed of PBs by a couple hundred feet per second. I only use real gas checks in handguns very rarely, when I'm loading for dragons and such. Or tweekers. Gotta hit a tweeker purdy hard.

[CiDirkona]

I tried every lube under the sun for 9mm and couldn't get it to stop leading past 1000fps...

...until I tried the right bullet diameter... Then i tried all the lubes again and couldn't cause leading with any of them, spare tumble lubes.

[Larry Gibson]

Another example of misinterpretaion of what was probably said. Swaged facory lead bullets like the Speer and Hornady ones and cast bullets of pure lead can indeed get pretty "leady" at 900 - 1000 fps. The makers of such bullets admonish not to exceed those velocities for that reason. Some one is simply confused and thinking it means all PB cast bullets. Nothing to get excited about as we all know it isn't so. However, if repeated enough on the internet misinformation highway many will believe it as gospel.

Larry Gibson

[KAF]

I shoot plain base cast bullets in single shot rifles.

Use a lead tin alloy in 25/1 and 30/1, in a 25-20 Single Shot, breechseating the bullet, I ran the velocity to 1745fps and it started to get a slight trace of leading.
If I recall the hardness of such alloys is in the 7.5 to 8.0 range on the brinell scale.
A .095" cork wad is placed .200" above the powder. IMR 4227, around 10.5 gr

[evan price]

Just re-iterating what's already said. The soft swaged Hornady and Speer and Remington lead bullets are not lubed real well, that chalky-waxy stuff isn't that great.

If you size your bullets to the bore, if you use lube that's not too hard or too soft, use an alloy that's not too hard or too soft. If your chamber and throats are sized not under bore size. If the bore is smooth. Etc.

I load my 9mm at right around 1100 fps with 124-gr lee 2R tumble lube 9mm boolits, no leading with ALOX when sized .357" in any of my 9mm's.