Annealing cases into jackets question

[uncle joe]

I haven't had much experience annealing brass, but I have steel. With steel you need to reach a critical temp with steel somewhere around 1300 degrees hold it there for several minutes, then slow cool it gradually. The slower it cooled the better the anneal. I would think the air cooling would be better than 'quenching' in water. Might even be better to dump sand over the brass when it comes out of the oven to cool it slow.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Joe. Interesting thoughts. If this really takes off, and I become as excited about swaging as casting, I may have to figure out a good permanent annealing set-up.

I noticed when I was annealing in my grill, that the temp gauge (built into the lid of the grill) got to around 400 degrees (F), so I'm sure the cases sitting right in the blue flames were considerably hotter than that. The best ones got the dull orange glow, while some were still brass-colored, but upon pulling them out, they had the same embrittlement to the finish as the ones that had gotten orange.

I'm air-cooling and I think I'm getting a pretty good softening on the brass.

I also noted as I was getting ready to take them to the sink for a cleaning that all the soot they acquired in the fireplace attempt the other day is gone. Must've burned off, which I think is another good sign - they got quite hot; much more so than in the fireplace.

My fireplace burners have the fake logs, and I may just take them out and stand the cases on the fireplace burners, which are perfectly flat (even better than my gas grill's burners, which have a slight angle to them). I think in my first fire-place attempt yesterday the jackets were:

A) Too far away from the flame source, and
B) Too insulated by the collander.

Direct in the flames is the way I did with a torch on rifle neck/shoulders before, and since I'm not trying to preserve the hardness of the case head on these (quite the opposite in fact), there's no need for the water heat sink or worrying about them getting "too" hot.

[zuke]

Well you could do that but you might run the risk of melting or severely distorting the cases at the bottom of the pot nearest the fire. If it was full of cases the ones in the center might not get enough heat. You want to try and somewhat control how much heat they are getting while ensuring they are getting enough.

Boiling them won't work since you can't get water hot enough to anneal the brass.

The water isn't to heat the brass, it's to quench the brass quickly thus annealing it.

[zuke]

I haven't had much experience annealing brass, but I have steel. With steel you need to reach a critical temp with steel somewhere around 1300 degrees hold it there for several minutes, then slow cool it gradually. The slower it cooled the better the anneal. I would think the air cooling would be better than 'quenching' in water. Might even be better to dump sand over the brass when it comes out of the oven to cool it slow.

Brass the exact opposite of steel, you quench it in water to soften it up.
That's how I've been doing case neck's for quite some time now.

[bohica2xo]

Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched. You can let them air cool, or toss them in icewater - it makes no difference.

This Post has more info

I usually use one of my heat treat ovens if one is already "up". One of them is usually idling around 1000f , so I just toss the cases in there for a while.

If I am in a hurry, I use a firebrick & a propane torch. Takes about 5 minutes to do a brick full of cases placed head up. Just turn them red & keep working across the block.

If you are using an aluminum pan it is doubtful that the cases are getting a full anneal.

B.

[a.squibload]

After annealing I've been dumping the cases in a big plastic wide-mouth jug,
2 tsp of citric acid per quart, add very hot water almost full, then tumble it around a few times.
In about 10 min the cases are really clean, then into the tumbler.
Walnut shell, only 'cause that's what I had on hand. Think I'll get corncob next time.

Search around here, there are a few threads on citric acid, cleans brass real good
and "passivates" it, making it very unlikely to tarnish.

[Daywalker]

I agree with the citric acid cleaning really good. Lemishine I believe is what I read on here, I started using the lemishine/water mix in my ultrasonic cleaner to clean my annealed brass a boy let me tell you what. They come out clean and smelling lemony fresh heheheh....

Bohica, have you had problems of a few cases going "pop" when anealing on the fire brick case head up? That is exatly how I anneal mine, I wear safety glasses due to the fact I have had a couple cases where they went pop and I had to pick them up off the floor and place them on the brick. They pop with such force it blows the flame out on the propane torch lol....

[Jailer]

I agree with the citric acid cleaning really good. Lemishine I believe is what I read on here, I started using the lemishine/water mix in my ultrasonic cleaner to clean my annealed brass a boy let me tell you what. They come out clean and smelling lemony fresh heheheh....

This.

I picked some up from Wally World yesterday. I can't believe how easy it is to clean them with this stuff. They come out looking like new after just a little bit of soaking.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched. You can let them air cool, or toss them in icewater - it makes no difference.

This Post has more info

This is my understanding as well. the reason I do quench them is because I am doing this in my Livingroom woodstove. I'd rather not have near red hot brass cooling near my livingroom carpet and such. Plus I like to add the humidity to the house in the winter
Jon

[sourceofuncertainty]

After annealing I've been dumping the cases in a big plastic wide-mouth jug,
2 tsp of citric acid per quart, add very hot water almost full, then tumble it around a few times.
In about 10 min the cases are really clean, then into the tumbler.

Me too. I've been annealing by torch so far, then doing a citric acid bath followed by tumbling. Citric acid + tumbling makes for some very clean & pretty brass.

I get citric acid at the local health food/grocery store (Sprouts) in the bulk spices section for about 50 cents an ounce. Cheap and effective.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, I said in my prior post that I was going to clean these in hot, soapy water in the sink, but I don't think I'm gonna now. After looking at all the annealed brass in the daylight, it's not that dirty.

In fact, I think I've found another indicator of a good anneal -- All the brass that has been annealed enough has an opaque brownish color to it. It is no longer shiney. The cases that were on a "cool" spot in the grill were still shiney, so they got re-cycled through, and I adjusted where on the burner I was setting the cases, so as to get enough heat on them.

Now, they're dull, brownish-colored, and with basically no soot on them.

They're headed to the tumbler now. I'll have to try the citric acid bath some time. For now, all I've got is vinegar (which in my experience just makes the brass dull, not shiney), but these cases look good enough that I think with an overnight run in the tumbler, they'll be fine.

[Jailer]

Well, I said in my prior post that I was going to clean these in hot, soapy water in the sink, but I don't think I'm gonna now. After looking at all the annealed brass in the daylight, it's not that dirty.

In fact, I think I've found another indicator of a good anneal -- All the brass that has been annealed enough has an opaque brownish color to it. It is no longer shiney. The cases that were on a "cool" spot in the grill were still shiney, so they got re-cycled through, and I adjusted where on the burner I was setting the cases, so as to get enough heat on them.

Now, they're dull, brownish-colored, and with basically no soot on them.

They're headed to the tumbler now. I'll have to try the citric acid bath some time. For now, all I've got is vinegar (which in my experience just makes the brass dull, not shiney), but these cases look good enough that I think with an overnight run in the tumbler, they'll be fine.

Mine turn out just like that too after I take them off the grill. I tried tumbling mine in clean corn cob media and it didn't take the tarnished color off. About 15 minutes of soaking in the kitchen sink with Lemi Shine and a few drops of dish soap I agitated them around with my hand and they look like new again.

[bohica2xo]

I agree with the citric acid cleaning really good. Lemishine I believe is what I read on here, I started using the lemishine/water mix in my ultrasonic cleaner to clean my annealed brass a boy let me tell you what. They come out clean and smelling lemony fresh heheheh....

Bohica, have you had problems of a few cases going "pop" when anealing on the fire brick case head up? That is exatly how I anneal mine, I wear safety glasses due to the fact I have had a couple cases where they went pop and I had to pick them up off the floor and place them on the brick. They pop with such force it blows the flame out on the propane torch lol....

Daywalker:
I have never had a case do that. I am sure that with several pounds in the oven I would have found them scattered all over if that had happened, even if I don't hear it.

Never had one pop on the firebrick either. Perhaps you had something wet inside a case? Sounds like a steam issue - maybe a spider egg sac? Seems like a live primer would be a bigger mess than that.

B.

[sourceofuncertainty]

I had one pop on me today - first time. Normally I torch them individually, but I tried torching them as a group. Just as the inner most brass were getting cherry red and the outer brass were getting close, one went "pop" and kicked a few off the steel plate I was using. It certainly surprised me. In looking over the brass later I couldn't tell which one popped, or why. However I did have one case from that batch let go of its primer when in the ultrasonic bath later.

I don't know if the popped case is the same one that dropped its primer out, though I'm going with that theory for now.

In the future I won't batch-torch them though, at least until I can figure out what that was and why it happened.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Mine turn out just like that too after I take them off the grill. I tried tumbling mine in clean corn cob media and it didn't take the tarnished color off. About 15 minutes of soaking in the kitchen sink with Lemi Shine and a few drops of dish soap I agitated them around with my hand and they look like new again.

Thanks Jailer, I'll have to look for some...

[buck1]

Unsweetened koolaid lemmon aid is citric acid.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks, guys!

I spent a short bit of the evening last night seating cores into the "jackets" and if I didn't line up the core fairly well, it would start into the die crooked. I can identify each one of those, because the brass is so soft that rather than "self-aligning" and seating, the core would put a little sideways curl into the casemouth before a little additional pressure and support from the casewalls did get the core to turn perfectly upright and center itself as it was seated down into the case. So, looks like I got these plenty soft enough to run through the swage die.

BTW, to get rid of that curling action, I did a couple things - bell-mouthed the cases fairly deep (so the first driving band would go down inside the case when I set the boolit in the mouth of it), and I started gently bumping the boolit base on the seater (bell-mouth stem) so as to get it to center-up before putting the pressure on the handle to seat the core. (Before, I was setting the bullet onto the mouth of the case and running it up into the die in one motion with constant pressure.) I think either one of these would solve the problem, but both surely did...

I'm off to the store (after breakfast) to hunt up some Cirtric Acid. Want my bullets to look nice, after all!

[Grapeshot]

I have used an old cookie tray that my wife thru out. I arrange fifty cases in ten rows of five each, case mouth down, and then play a propane torch over each one.

As they start to glow ed I keep the heat on until they are glowing a nice bright orange and using an old butter knife slide them off and into an old metal can to cool.

I do a row at a time and get about 400 done in about 45 minutes.

I do it this way to insure the head and rim are very soft and will stretch out to the side walls of the die. .40 S&W cases make good .45 Caliber bullets.

[BT Sniper]

10mm,

That Stainless steel collender at wally world is what I use. I think it still works best in my gutted BBQ placed directly on the flame. Just cut the rubber off the sliding handels and good to go.

I'm off to get some lemishine.

Swage On!

BT

[BT Sniper]

Figures, Wally World didn't have it.