To say I am discouraged is an understatement

[geargnasher]

Smoking a moulds cavities may mask a problem, but (BS word) it also solves the problem. Lyman moulds ( I have about 70 four cavity) almost always have to be smoked to produce good boolits.

I'm not talking casting a few hundred or a couple thousand either. In one nine month period I handcast 50,000 38-158-RNPB for 38S IPSC shooters and a distributor in Toledo. I averaged 50,000 plus per month. I used three four cavity Lyman moulds and could empty a 10 kilo RCBS pot in twenty minutes, approx. 500 boolits. Fill the pot with alloy and start on the second 10 kilo pot that was ready to go. When the second pot was done, the first was ready to go. I normally cast eight to ten pots a day. Paid all the bills till I found another job.

The Lyman moulds would not, NOT, cast a good boolit until they were smoked. An old wives tale? Not in my experience. This includes H&G, Saeco, and Lee. IMHO, Bic is my friend.

Too much build up is not good, so I clean my moulds before I smoke them a second time. I clean my moulds with a diluted solution of Dawn and a tooth brush. Otherwise, you get undersize boolits.

Smoking moulds works for me, so I'll stick with it. YMMV

If it "worked" for you, it worked. You did it right with a Bic instead of a match or candle like Lee recommends, and didn't let it get thick. However, just because you couldn't get any of those moulds to cast a good boolit until smoked doesn't mean that it is a general truth. I means that, with the particular technique you used to cast, it was deemed necessary by you. If you're interested, come over to my house sometime with ANY of your moulds and I'll show you how I do it without smoke. In many cases, especially with rifle boolits needing flawless consistency, smoke throws a monkey wrench in the works as far as diameter, fillout of the edges, surface "finish", and weight consistency. A clean mould run at a constant temperature with a consistent alloy compostition and temperature are key to making consistent, accurate boolits. In .38 Spl I doubt anyone would know the difference.

Gear

[geargnasher]

armoredman:

Call me simple but as I said before heat is your friend in my opinion ~ both mould and lead. I don't know what you base your "opinion" on, but I base mine upon facts of metallurgy, and explained earlier in this thread the scientific reasons why running the alloy too hot is bad. You are correct about having a plenty-hot mould.

The hotplate will help for sure and good hot lead will too. If my sprue hardens before I put down my ladle my opinion is that the mould and/or lead are too cool and I generally find that boolits are wrinkled or have rounded edges. Again, you are drawing the wrong conclusion on the lead temperature. If the lead will pour it is hot enough. If you have wrinkled boolits, or the sprue freezes too fast, your mould is what is too cool and you need to increase your casting pace to impart more heat to it.

As mentioned, I have a two burner propane stove and the mould gets heated on a pice of 3/16" steel plate while lead is melting. Nothing wrong with that setup, sounds pretty good to me.

Not very scientific but if spit or water on the end of my finger doesn't sizzle like on a pancake griddle the mould is not hot enough. That's for sure, but even if it does sizzle it still may not be hot enough. Depending on mould and alloy, my moulds run somewhere between 350 and 500* (the higher only for pure lead or lead/tin alloy) and they will sizzle spit at 220*.

I find the NOE aluminum and Mihec brass moulds require even more heat to cast well but they do cast well for me. I've found that to be true as well, but I run my alloy the same temp as I would for any other mould, but preheat a bit more and cast at warp speed to keep them hot. Aluminum and brass have an extremely high coefficient of thermal conductivity (they lose heat fast) and fast casting is needed to keep the heat up. I thought that pointy little nose on the NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. would be a problem to fill but when the mould and lead are hot they come out great.

Don't give up, you will get it. Lots of good advice in this thread.

Longbow

Longbow, this is an example of the "wive's tales" we've been talking about. Experience has taught you that heat is important to good boolit casting, but if you're using alloys containing tin, you won't get the best results from overheating your pot. Just try a cooler pot and faster casting pace, you might like it!

Gear

[CJR]

Gear,

Your statement:

"In many cases, especially with rifle boolits needing flawless consistency, smoke throws a monkey wrench in the works as far as diameter, fillout of the edges, surface "finish", and weight consistency".

Has not been my experience. The NRA recommended smoking the mould and then brushing out the mould with a very well cleaned brush. My diameters are fine, fillout of edges is fine, and surface finish is excellent. Weight variation is expected as I do a lot of casting and use different scrap leads. etc. I solve that by separating my bullets into batches that vary no more than a grain. I shoot as many cast bullets for rifle as I do for pistols. That's been my experience.

Best regards,

CJR

[Bret4207]

If it "worked" for you, it worked. You did it right with a Bic instead of a match or candle like Lee recommends, and didn't let it get thick. However, just because you couldn't get any of those moulds to cast a good boolit until smoked doesn't mean that it is a general truth. I means that, with the particular technique you used to cast, it was deemed necessary by you. If you're interested, come over to my house sometime with ANY of your moulds and I'll show you how I do it without smoke. In many cases, especially with rifle boolits needing flawless consistency, smoke throws a monkey wrench in the works as far as diameter, fillout of the edges, surface "finish", and weight consistency. A clean mould run at a constant temperature with a consistent alloy compostition and temperature are key to making consistent, accurate boolits. In .38 Spl I doubt anyone would know the difference.

Gear

Agree, what works for one guy, regardless of how many he casts, isn't the answer for everyone. My experience is opposite casterofboolits. I have several 4 cavity Lymans, a bunch of 6 Cavity Lee and a 10 cavity H+G. The last thing I need is soot in the cavities. But, I use a basic WW alloy, a hot mould and it works for me. I question that all your moulds "needed" smoking, but wonder if rather you found it to work so just made it a practice. That's what I did for a long time when I was casting a lot and smoking things.

Who knows, I have a fever anywy today, maybe this will all seem dumb tomorrow.

[casterofboolits]

If it "worked" for you, it worked. You did it right with a Bic instead of a match or candle like Lee recommends, and didn't let it get thick. However, just because you couldn't get any of those moulds to cast a good boolit until smoked doesn't mean that it is a general truth. I means that, with the particular technique you used to cast, it was deemed necessary by you. If you're interested, come over to my house sometime with ANY of your moulds and I'll show you how I do it without smoke. In many cases, especially with rifle boolits needing flawless consistency, smoke throws a monkey wrench in the works as far as diameter, fillout of the edges, surface "finish", and weight consistency. A clean mould run at a constant temperature with a consistent alloy compostition and temperature are key to making consistent, accurate boolits. In .38 Spl I doubt anyone would know the difference.

Gear

Gear,

I sure wish I could drop by for a casting session, but it's a bit far. I don't do rifle boolits or gas checks.

My moulds have been tuned to match and my alloy mixed to throw exact weights in my moulds. If it's a 158, my boolits are Plus/minus .5 grains from both moulds I'm using. The alloy is triple fluxed when smelted and then fluxed again in my bottom pour pots. The smelt is usually 50/50 WW and indoor range lead. I add a mix of Lino (90%) and tin (10%) to the to get the boolet weight I want. I do this by weight and usually do this 65# at a time and make one pound and half pound ingots. My casting temp is 750 F by my Lyman thermometer. My Lyman moulds like to run hot.

I supplied cast boolit to IPSC shooters for twenty years till health problems put me out of business.

I'm not trying to upset any one, just stating my experience.

What worked for me may not work for others, as I said YMMV.

[geargnasher]

I'm certainly not upset, hope no one else is either! I think you'll find that if you had cast with one gang mould at a time (to keep mould temp up) and run your alloy at 650-700 degrees you would never have had to smoke your moulds. But you did what you had to do to get the production you needed.

I wish some of us lived closer together, but I guess meeting on line is better than never meeting at all!

Gear

[a.squibload]

Used to smoke molds, thought I was supposed to.
Never cleaned a mold before, ever. Water is bad for 'em!
Only pre-heated a mold for a few seconds by dipping corner in melt, scared of warping.
I like the saw blade, and coffee-can oven.

Bet I'll get better boolits now! Used to have a high rejection rate.

Still need to make a burner and stand, cut the propane tank for a pot, heat-cycle the new NOE molds,
slug the bores, fix the brakes, paint the house, someday I'll go shootin' too...

[geargnasher]

Gear,

Your statement:

"In many cases, especially with rifle boolits needing flawless consistency, smoke throws a monkey wrench in the works as far as diameter, fillout of the edges, surface "finish", and weight consistency".

Has not been my experience. The NRA recommended smoking the mould and then brushing out the mould with a very well cleaned brush. My diameters are fine, fillout of edges is fine, and surface finish is excellent. Weight variation is expected as I do a lot of casting and use different scrap leads. etc. I solve that by separating my bullets into batches that vary no more than a grain. I shoot as many cast bullets for rifle as I do for pistols. That's been my experience.

Best regards,

CJR

The NRA also thinks that 50/50 is the best possible boolit lubricant and don't get me started on what they say about fillers. The NRA staff at one time did a lot to dispell myths and put a little R&D into the then-contemporary cast boolit world. They did us all an invaluble service, but that shouldn't limit the rest of us to the knowledge of a few bright men from the 1950's forever. There are a lot of things we know better how to do now, so let's keep moving forward.

Can you explain to me exactly WHY the NRA articles recommended smoking the cavities? Were there any aluminum moulds in existence at that time? I want to know the exact reasons, because if there is something I missed about the technique of smoking moulds I want to know what it is.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Used to smoke molds, thought I was supposed to.
Never cleaned a mold before, ever. Water is bad for 'em!
Only pre-heated a mold for a few seconds by dipping corner in melt, scared of warping.
I like the saw blade, and coffee-can oven.

Bet I'll get better boolits now! Used to have a high rejection rate.

Still need to make a burner and stand, cut the propane tank for a pot, heat-cycle the new NOE molds,
slug the bores, fix the brakes, paint the house, someday I'll go shootin' too...

I know, ME TOO! It said so in the instructions for the first mould I ever owned (a Lee two-banger rn .30 cal GC mould). I also used beewax to lubricate the sprue plate and alignment pins, fluxed with candle wax, ran the pot on "9", and cussed a lot. Never made very pretty boolits, either, until I started experimenting. Then I went back and quizzed the gentleman who showed me how to cast in the first place, and he said he didn't know, he always used iron or Mehenite (sp) moulds and all they ever needed was a good cleaning and maybe a bronze brush wrapped in steel wool spun in the cavities once in a while. I was cautioned to add tin solder and keep the pot temp down. Now I know why. I tried cleaning the Lee mold and doing what he said. Voila!, good boolits. He also showed me the trick of dipping the corner of the mould in the melt, but never said it would warp the blocks. Good thing I didn't know it would warp them, 'cause I've been getting dozens of moulds scorching hot by dunking the blocks in the melt and it would have ruined them if I'd have known .

This is exactly why myself and a few others come here and trumpet what we do, perhaps we can obliterate some of the common BS about casting, and if I can save even one person who is new to casting some of the trouble I went through learning how, it will have been worth it.

{edit}There are 13 people currently viewing this thread, including four lurkers, hope I have helped some of you in some way.


Gear

[buck1]

[QUOTE=cbrick;1000847]Many years ago I read an article (I think HandLoader but not sure) on mold cleaning that said the only readily available cleaning solvent that leaves NO residue upon drying is denatured alcohol. Break Cleaner does, naphtha and carb cleaner and the like can be as bad as the original oil your trying to get rid of. Been using denatured alcohol ever since and have no oily mold issues.



Rick
End quote.


More wives tales...
I must say in the several years I have been casting I have used break clean with -0- trouble from residue. If it does leave a residue , it does not give any trouble.
Denatured alcohol, wile a good cleaner is loaded with additives and dyes. to make it poision to drink. these additives varry a lot. Dont take my word on it , look it up.
I am not saying it does not work . I am just saying its not the only game in town, and is not the ultra pure cleaner it sounds like....my $0.02 ....Buck

[CJR]

Gear,

Your request:

"Can you explain to me exactly WHY the NRA articles recommended smoking the cavities? Were there any aluminum moulds in existence at that time? I want to know the exact reasons, because if there is something I missed about the technique of smoking moulds I want to know what it is."

From the NRA article I answer your questions as follows:
1. The NRA recommended smoking the moulds to improve the quality of the bullets.
2.There were aluminum moulds available at that time.

And now for a little background on the NRA's research on cast bullets. The late Col. Harrison, who authored many of the NRA's articles/books, I believe ran the Army's Aberdeen Proving grounds. On retirement he joined the NRA and investigated many subjects including the cast bullet development. He obviously had a very technical background and was well versed in conducting detailed scientific experiments. Col. Harrison surrounded himself with cast bullet competitors who actively shot in matches up to a 1000yds with cast bullets. Some of these gentlemen set some cast bullet records. I corresponded with Col. Harrison a few times and found him to be very astute in cast bullets. He developed the NRA's Alox 2138F/beeswax cast bullet lubricant, but also tested virtually hundreds of other lubricants. Likewise, he evaluated existing cast bullet designs and documented what were poor designs. Shortly thereafter many mould manufacturers quietly dropped those bullet designs from their catalogs. I very greatly respect the NRA's work on cast bullet technology because they published what they discovered for all to see and critique. I know of no one else that has advanced the state of the art of cast bullets as the NRA has. If the NRA recommended "smoking" a bullet mould to improve bullet quality, I know they conducted detailed experiments before making that recommendation. Col. Harrison and his staff were very knowledgeable about casting quality bullets and worked with a lot of the mould manufacturers. If producing quality bullets was just only proper cleaning of the moulds, the NRA would have advocated it. Instead they advocated proper cleaning, smoking, and brushing out the mould.

Best regards,

CJR

[Recluse]

[QUOTE=buck1;1002636]

Many years ago I read an article (I think HandLoader but not sure) on mold cleaning that said the only readily available cleaning solvent that leaves NO residue upon drying is denatured alcohol. Break Cleaner does, naphtha and carb cleaner and the like can be as bad as the original oil your trying to get rid of. Been using denatured alcohol ever since and have no oily mold issues.



Rick
End quote.


More wives tales...
I must say in the several years I have been casting I have used break clean with -0- trouble from residue. If it does leave a residue , it does not give any trouble.
Denatured alcohol, wile a good cleaner is loaded with additives and dyes. to make it poision to drink. these additives varry a lot. Dont take my word on it , look it up.
I am not saying it does not work . I am just saying its not the only game in town, and is not the ultra pure cleaner it sounds like....my $0.02 ....Buck

Well, one thing that is not a wives tale is that any residue left over from brake cleaner, when heated up, can do you some serious, as in deadly, damage if you inadvertently inhale the fumes.

When I Lee-ment a Lee mold, I use some Shooter's Choice to clean the lapping compound out of the cavities and any residue that got in the vent lines. I next use brake cleaner to get rid of the Shooter's Choice, then I use 91% isopropyl alcohol on a Q-tip, generously, to get rid of the brake cleaner. Molds then go on top of the furnace to pre-heat, then a dozen or more casting runs to completely burn off any remaining residues.

Works for me.

[frankenfab]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, guys. I noticed the day I joined this site how perfect the boolit in Cbrick's avatar was. I don't always make boolits like that, but I am no amatuer, either. I think alot of the things brought up and explained in this thread might enable me to make the really pretty boolits on a more consistent basis.

Thanks to all of you.

[geargnasher]

[QUOTE=buck1;1002636]

Many years ago I read an article (I think HandLoader but not sure) on mold cleaning that said the only readily available cleaning solvent that leaves NO residue upon drying is denatured alcohol. Break Cleaner does, naphtha and carb cleaner and the like can be as bad as the original oil your trying to get rid of. Been using denatured alcohol ever since and have no oily mold issues.



Rick
End quote.


More wives tales...
I must say in the several years I have been casting I have used break clean with -0- trouble from residue. If it does leave a residue , it does not give any trouble.
Denatured alcohol, wile a good cleaner is loaded with additives and dyes. to make it poision to drink. these additives varry a lot. Dont take my word on it , look it up.
I am not saying it does not work . I am just saying its not the only game in town, and is not the ultra pure cleaner it sounds like....my $0.02 ....Buck

Actually, Buck you need some better information. Brake cleaner, years ago before the OSHA, CARB, and EPA started making it, contained some things like chlorine that left a residue behind. Not so much anymore. You can clean glass with it, just about anyone's formula. They also used to use heavier hydrocarbons as propellants and that left oily residues.

You are correct about denatured alcohol having additives, but you don't get the whole story, and that is a shame. The "additives" are simply other alcohols, mainly Methanol, which serve only to poison the base ethanol to the point that it can be considered tax exempt from the perspective of the agencies responsible for taxing and regulating drinking alcohol, aka booze. Those additive alcohols do not detract from the effective degreasing quality of the product. The dye, had to go to Wiki-paedea (NOT the greatest source) says that the purple dye is Aniline dye which I doubt very seriously actually affects the cleaning/degreasing properties.

Gear

[badgeredd]

Maybe I missed it but has anyone suggested checking the mold venting? I know that decent venting really helps to fill a mold so it occurred to me that possibly trapped air may also be a factor.

Edd

[geargnasher]

CJR, you have told me nothing. "Because Col. Harrison said so" alone isn't a good reason.

You gave me history, facts about Co. Harrison, etc. but NO reasons why smoking is good for moulds. I readily acknowledge the good work done by him and the NRA staff, writers, and researchers. I did so a couple of posts ago, as a matter of fact. I also refuse to be stuck in a mid-19th century way of thinking. If we all were, we wouln't have the internet or the technology that makes the PC possible. We would be posting letters to each other that were written with Royal typewriters. We might not be shooting cast at 2500+fps because we might have thought that antimony was a wive's tale and never added it to our mix, since Lord Elmer was so stuck on his beloved 16:1. All I'm saying is technology advances, and if you don't understand the reasoning behind techniques you're using, you may well be doing things the hard way or not the best way.

Nowdays, we have things like Felix lube, which is FAR, FAR, superior in every way to the NRA formula, although it doesn't contain any space-age ingredients. In fact it is made from 17th century ingredients, just put together with a 20th-century understanding that came about from research in petroleum plastics. We also have Veral's lube, and let's not discount the magical properties of certain modern lubricants such as that in Bullplate sprue lube or Polydimethylsiloxane compounds. Soooo, I challenge again a simple, scientific reason why carbon particles in the cavities make better boolits, because my experience has been otherwise, mainly because they don't make a brush with fine enough bristles to get the soot out of the corners of the cavities.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Maybe I missed it but has anyone suggested checking the mold venting? I know that decent venting really helps to fill a mold so it occurred to me that possibly trapped air may also be a factor.

Edd

Edd, that's one of my peeves about smoke: It plugs vent lines. I don't think anyone mentioned it specifically, but Leementing was.

Armoredman, you might do well to go to Castpics.net and read that article on "Leementing" a mould, it includes a brief description of how to scribe the vent lines on Lee moulds, but I don't think your mould really needs it, just clean the soot out of everything and try again.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, guys. I noticed the day I joined this site how perfect the boolit in Cbrick's avatar was. I don't always make boolits like that, but I am no amatuer, either. I think alot of the things brought up and explained in this thread might enable me to make the really pretty boolits on a more consistent basis.

Thanks to all of you.

Says sumphin', don't it?

Gear

[RayinNH]

...and then there's the folks who spray Kroil into their molds. Obviously spotless cleaning isn't the be all and end all. Crazy hobby. So much to learn...Ray

[azcruiser]

i think i identified a problem. I am used to the method i was taught, to try to swirl the melt around the opening in the sprue plate, to get an even fill out. This mould doesn't allow that, with frequent plugs forming in the sprue plate. I just measured with the handy dandy calipers. All lee sprue holes measure between .40 and .60, (for the older one), while the biggest sprue hole in the new mould is .32, with two measuring .15! No wonder i can't get a good fill out - i can't get a good stream into the thing.
Does that sound like a likely villian? The sprue plate is very thick, .185", compared to the wider holed lee, (that just don't sound right! ) is at .12". Being detached from the mould, it doesn't heat like the mould does, and being such a small hole, it freezes the melt far earlier than the mould itself does.
Of course, i might be grasping at straws here...thoughts?

Edit to add, i am going to figure this thing out one way or another, i never had a real quality mould before, and i ain't getting rid of this one!

i would think they all should be the same dia. On a mold ?? IF their different that doesn't sound right to me going from .32 to .15 sounds like maybe someone skipped a step.The right Drill should fix that I think Also you said the spurs get hard make me think with a bigger mold you need a bigger piece of wood /bat/dowel to hit the sprue plate