Looking for a hunting bullet for my 45 auto. I am new to the auto scene. Generally shoot revolvers with big flat-nosed bullets. I will be carrying the the 1911 as a back up gun while elk and deer archery hunting. Used for black bear and cougar protection or just plain kills. Yes, in my state it is legal.
Hoping to find a bullet that will cycle and have a flat nose for a good wound channel.
Last edited by joecool911; 06-19-2010 at 12:12 PM.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76889
That buy is closing very soon.
Would you choose the hollow or flat point option?Originally Posted by zuke
Think I'd also take a look at Lee's 200 grain RF boolit. Sheding 30 grains will net you a little more velocity which in turn nets you a little more penatration.
My opinion is it's caliber not weight that get the job done with the 45 auto. I will always go with a 200 grain boolit over the 230. Flater shooting, better velocity ( within reason) easier recoil.
I have used the Lee 200 Grain H&G copy and have been very impressed with it. Particularly on 7.5 grains of Unique. By the way this is a carry load not a "Plinking" load.
Use with Caution!
230 gr LBT LFN. I bought a 4 cavity mould.
I got both, it wont cost all that much for the two.
My experience with heavier revolvers would lead me to believe that heavier and slower makes a bigger wound channel. But with more velocity like in the 1,500 fps range and 3oo+ grain bullets.
Joe you are absolutely correct, If you have 1500 FPS and a 300 grain boolit you will make a bigger wound channel.
However I am "short" load info that produces those numbers in a 45 Auto!
So that's kinda of an Apples and Oranges comparision.
In the 45 Auto platforms, with the 45 ACP case, I'll stand behind my suggestion of a 200 grain boolit rather than a 230.
Some years ago a friend of my sons wanted to do an unusual sicence project that involved shooting and penatration tests. Several rounds, 45-70, 38 special, 22 LR and the 45 Auto were tested in several different types of "media" and presented to the public.
Of interest here was the testing of the 45 ACP round in a standard 1911 Colt government model.
My 7.5 grain Unique load with the 200 grain Lee H&G 68 copy against Military WCC ball ammo.
Two test objects used were an old truck door, left and right hand sides and 3/4 inch ply wood stacked 14 layers ( 3/4 inch to a layer) thick.
In both tests ( and I will admit these are both very limited and might prove nothing) My load out performed the WCC ball load.
The ball rounds were found in the truck door after firing from 15 yards my load went trough and exited the other side! Both doors were shot with the windows rolled down and in the same area.
The plywood was the real surprise for me! These were cut 14 inch x 14 inch and it was fairly easy to get 4 rounds in each stack. The sides were then taped with duct tape so they could be opened like a book by viewers at the science fair.
The WCC ball rounds went through 9 layers of plywood and dented the 10th. My load went thrugh 10 layers and half way through the 11th. All my Cast boolits were stuck in the 11th layer of plywood when they were inspected.
My thoughts on this were simple: my load was a touch faster and lead is "slippery'er" than copper so I "won".
So if I was gonna do what you say your gonna do what load do you think I'd carry in my 1911?
I like & shoot that bullet, works well in the 45acp in most pistols. Cast hard, pushed to 950fps, it pentrates all day.
I can tell you that the BD45 GB will take coyote, woodchuck and feral dogs with no issue at 850-875 fps.
200 grain bullet hard cast is the way to go. H&G 68 SWC at 950 fps. Minimum. You do not want any expansion. Black bear are tough as a bear. You need maximum penetration and even then a 45 acp is marginal. H&G #68 or one of the many clone bullets will penetrate better than any bullet I know of. 200 grain RNFP would probably do so so also. I've just never seen penetration test on them. For the SWC you need a pistol that feeds them. Test I've seen on the #68 show they penetrate straight.
I've been bear hunting and seen a lot of bears shot with rifles. 8mm Mauser with five holes in a little, not even legal, 135 lb black. Lung shot with 30-06 REM Core Loc they go 250 yards like clock work. To soft a bullet.
Black bears will run away if they have a chance but if you shoot them with a little piss ant 45 acp they will be pissed off like you have never seen. If you are staring at a black bear that knows where you are don't even think about a heart lung shot with a 45 acp. They will eat you and have you half digested before they bleed out. Go for the base of skull shot or up through the skull. All depends upon your angle. If above don't aim between the eyes or you just blow through the roof of their mouth as you would on a coon. Aim for base of skull so you either get brain or spine. Off a couple inches and you are in trouble. Most of all I'd not recommend a 45 acp as an offensive shot.
My brother in law hit a 250 lb sow broadside with a 30-06 Rem 180gr and it spun a bit to end up facing him at his ground blind. Ran right through the blind chomping at the bullet hole. Collided with his rifle muzzle as he was trying to cycle in another round. Met up with him a couple hours later and he was still shaking. I saw the tracks going right through his blind so I know it's true. Bear was fond 250 yards out. She was knocked off her feet from the shot at fifty feet range. Just ran in the direction she was pointed in after she got back up. If she had known My BIL was their she would have chomped his head. She could feel the bullet hit and thought something had her so was biting at it with the bear chomp which can be heard for a mile. You see that with racoons shot with 22's. Those Remington bullets said High Shock right on the box. Well high shock is no bear bullet. 45 acp is no bear gun. I carried a 9mm with 125 grain Hornady 357 mag flat point bullets over 8 grains of blue dot. No bear gun either but sure beats a knife. After I saw how tough bears were I bought a 44 mag. I'd use a 357 mag 6inch barrel with 177 grain Lyman #358429 as minimum. I did end up chasing a wounded bear with a S&W 38 snub nose once. That will teach you not to leave your rifle behind just because a fellow tells you it's down dead. I do not consider a 45 acp better than a 38 snubby for bears. Either one is pitifull.
You do need a hand gun to go bear hunting. They tend to run into the worst thick brush where you can't move your rifle. One night tracking a shot bear through a wild black cherry swamp in UP of Michigan. I heard a noise. Probably a porcupine. I had my rifle forearm and flashlight in my left hand. Tried to point the light at the sound when my rifle barrel hooked into a cherry sapling fork. Sapling bent some so I kept pulling down until I about lifted my boots off the ground. Gave up and separated the light to shine on target while flinging my rifle around windmill style. Expecting to see an open mouth in my face. But nothing there except the sound of a little thirty pound critter running for it's life. This was the same trip where I chased a wounded bear with a 38 snubby. All I needed to spring for a 44 mag revolver. You put a hollow point in that 45 acp and you won't even get through the fat on a black bear. I don't even load HP's in my 44 mag for big critters. IMO you can get by with a 45 acp for back up but don't even think about starting it up with a blackie using that little pop gun. Cats are a different issue and they will just sit there letting you shoot holes in them untill they are dead. Cougars, Pumas , Panthers. They are not African Lions. You would have a hard time to convince me you shot a cat in self defense. Wouldn't fault you for shooting one but would not believe any tall tales of how it was attacking you. You'd not want to tell that story anyways as they only go for women and children who are week looking.
Different people have different experiences. I grew up in the heart of bear country and would have no issue carrying anything in the heavy 38 class on up.
My old auto bullet (no crimp groove) was a 260 LBT seated to 1.21 with 7.5 grains of AA#5. That was 875 fps out of a 5" tube at about 23k. (+P) Required the heavier spring. Still use that in a 625 today.
Close enough to the old Colt load to call it.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
I spent most of my adult life in Alaska, as a Gunsmith and part time guide. Big Bears, little Bears; all hard to kill and very hard to predict an outcome. I've put four 375s in one and he was breaking rocks with his teeth, but I've had them die in their tracks with one head shot from a smaller caliber.
One of my clients dropped a Brown Bear with a Browning HP with a shot in the chin as the Bear was standing over him, but I wouldn't attempt to repeat it. I love my 45s but would not count on them to stop an angry bear.
I read an article by a hunting guide from Idaho taking a number of Chicago policemen on bear hunting trips and it all started when the first one came and got a bear with his .45 ACP service gun. The guide always had his rifle at the ready and still had a couple of scares. The policeman hit the bear 3 times and they were only 30' away. The bear just climbed on up to a higher perch on the tree. IIRC, the policeman shot it one more time before it fell to the ground and the guide said that the fall probably broke the bears neck.
You do what you want to but I ain't sure that I'd trust my life to the ability to hit the bear in the right spot before he had already digested me and the .45.
One suggestion; look at some ammo that is made for big game hunting and compare the energy (ft.lbs) that they produce at reasonable distances. Here is a site that shows some of what I mean: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...ct_detail&p=67
EW
I appreciate all the comments. I agree about the 45 being marginal. Thats why I have a 10mm on order. I had a 454 Casull and found it too heavy to pack all the time. That was a good bear gun, but if you dont have it on you...it doesn't do any good. Actually thinking about a snub nosed 44 mag alaskan.
joecoll911
"hunting" and "back up" are two different things. Back up will be at close range and the .45 ACP sure beats the alternative of "no firearm" when bow hunting. I bow hunted for some years and carried my Colt Combat Commander for the same reason you ask about. Never had to use it while bow hunting but I have killed 3 black bears with the .45 ACP; one with the Commander, one with a Government Model and one with a M1917 S&W. One was with The H&G #68 cast hard over 7.5 gr Unique and it took 5 shots (all heart/lung) before the bear was down for the count. Wound channels were all through and through with little damage other than the hole on the 200 lb+ black bear. In the GM and M1917 I used a GC 452490 cast very, very soft and HP'd with a Forster HP tool and then reamed open with a Michael's rear swivel stud drill. At 850 fps out of the GM aand 950 fps out of the M1917 both gave one shot kills and the wound channels of the through and through shots exhibited much more damage than the hard cast #68 had. All three bear were about 25 - 30' up in tree's so the shots were all raking shots up through the "chest/brisket" and exiting out the back.
I have been a fan of soft cast HP and GC'd bullets for handgun use on deer, elk and black bears for many years because of these experiences and many more comparing hard cast bullets to soft cast GC'd HP bullets in the mentioned game animals. Experience has proven to me the soft cast HP GC'd bullets do kill quicker. The key is the GC so the bullet can be driven fast enough with accuracy, a correct HP and of course the very soft alloy (I like recovered .22LR lead up through 1150 fps and 50/50 WW/lead from 1200 fps up to 2200 fps). Ast to the 45 ACP I think that it is too bad the Lyman "devestator" 45 bullet is not GC'd. The .44 Devestator is GC'd and is very deadly on deer, elk and black bears. Just my thoughts based on my experience. Obviously others vary so you'll have to make up your own mind what to "go" with. After all, it is your hide
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 06-20-2010 at 01:34 PM.
.45ACP is pretty poor choice for bear. The hide is very tuff, plus thick hair, and a layer of fat. The one I shot a couple years ago had a layer of fat over 6" thick.
The only effective way to kill a bear with most pistols, is to place the muzzle between ear and eye, and shoot. The other method, is when you feel his tonsils around your wrist, open fire.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
Where as a 45 auto wouldn't be a primary choice for bear or cougar it will suffice as an alternative for a secondary; like said, something is better than nothing. However if you own a more powerful cartridge in a revolver that would be my first choice.
If not then I would go with a bullet that will give you penetration out of the 45 ACP platform. A hollow point at 45 ACP velocities I don't feel would give adequate penetration on a bear unless you shot it in a vital. Should you be up close and personnal with a bear your shot placement may not be as good as you would like and having a bullet that will penetrate deeper would be a better choice IMHO.
If you are left with only the 45 ACP as your option as a back up then I vote the Lee 200 RF that is hard cast and pushed out at 900 fps or faster for Mr. Grizzly.
All these scary stories have me looking at 44 magnums. I am liking the Taurus ultralite with 4" barrel. Weighs in at 28 oz. Almost half the weight of my old Ruger Super Redhawk. Problem with the full size handguns is that unless you are handgun hunting, they are just a parasite on you. Weighing in at almost 4 pounds. A pound and three quarters sounds better!
But until then, its the 45 acp to back up my 338 win mag or 45-70 or bow.
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