ATF got back to me about private boolit sales

[chris in va]

I asked about selling some cast boolits to a friend, here's the response I got back.

This correspondence is in response to your inquiry emailed to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on December 17, 2009. In your email, you request to know what you are required to do before transferring privately made “cast lead bullets” to a friend.



From the information you have provided there are no federal laws regulating the transfer of “lead bullets” between individuals.



We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your local ATF Industry Operations Office. A list of ATF Office telephone numbers can be found at http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm.



Regards,



Firearms Enforcement Branch, ATF

My original question...

Hello,

What is required legally, if anything, to sell a small amount of privately made cast lead bullets to a friend? This is *not* loaded ammunition, just the lead bullet.

Thank you.

[DLCTEX]

Wow! A sensible answer from BATF. Must be a mistake, no qualifiers, no hedging, no smoke or mirrors. Are you sure it went to "our" BATF?

[Recluse]

Not a bad idea to keep that e-mail/response on file.

ATF is notorious for having a very selective memory.

[Storydude]

Get it in writing. ATF correspondance is not Valid if not in PAPER FORM.

[Shiloh]

Not a bad idea to keep that e-mail/response on file.

ATF is notorious for having a very selective memory.

Amen to that!!!!

I was denied a transfer years ago. Six months to clear it up. I have every document and copies of ALL correspondence. Including registered mail receipts.

Selective memory is common when dealing with regulating Gov't agencies.
I would still doe this on a very low key basis. Loose lips sink ships.

Shiloh

[Longrange]

He must have had his daily allowance of coffee prior to sending that out. Best straight forward answer I believe I have ever seen from the feds..

[Riverrat]

It was probably a new guy who didn't know how to play the game yet!!

[Willbird]

Also ATF does not administer ITAR. Nor can they really answer questions about it.

And even ATF opinions in paper form have no actual value, unless they decide to save face by letting you slide once you produce it.

Bill

[lwknight]

I thought ITAR concerned international arms and was directly under the Presidents control..
Misouri bullets had to get his ITAR to ship to Canada.

[Changeling]

If it was NCIS (TV series) I would believe it, I would at least check "Gibbs", LOL.

[deltaenterprizes]

I am sure that this would cover a one time occurrence, not to all of your "friends" on this forum with an ad in the swapping and selling section. That in and of itself would be evidence of commercial intent.

[Scotts556]

Sorry newbi question here, but does this mean I can make small runs and sell them at a friend store??????


Thanks
Scott

[Bloodman14]

I would think that would require an FFL, as you are 'manufacturing ammunition or components for distribution or profit'; that is NOT a direct quote, although I saw that phrase in Chapter 44, United States Code, Title 18, somewhere in Sec. 922, 923 or 925, I don't recall exactly. "Google" 'Sec. 922', and look for the 'Cornell University School of Law' link; good info to have.

[1874Sharps]

This question and the answer appears in a thread from about four months back. First off let me say I am not a lawyer (don't you like me better already?!!) and am not trying to give any legal advice. I inquired into this question because I wanted to make sure I did not unknowingly get myself into any difficulties with the BATFE, especially considering the anti-gun current administration. To engage in commercial enterprise (deriving livelihood) in making ammunition OR AMMUNITION COMPONENTS SUCH AS BULLETS requires a federal license. The law goes on to define certain terms such as "deriving livelihood", etc. Some of these terms may not have very precise definitions, but after reading the applicable laws and then calling the BATFE I can tell you that if you are deriving you livelihood from the commercial enterprise of making bullets then you need the license. I asked about making boolits on occasion for sale to a friend and such and was told that was OK. In the back of my mind, though, I am imagining myself trying to explain whatever I may be up to as if I was testifying to a jury or federal investigation: Is what I am doing obviously in accordance to the law in any reasonable man's judgement, and maybe just a little more in that direction. You can make all you want for yourself and as gifts and can sell some on a small basis as long as you do not cross into that area of making your livelihood from it, wherever that point is. I think the law said the license was only $30 if I remember correctly. Anyone wanting legal advice on this issue can read the BATFE regs, call and talk to their licensing division or consult an attourney.

[machinisttx]

Get it in writing. ATF correspondance is not Valid if not in PAPER FORM.

ATF, as far as I know, won't answer any question unless it is actually mailed to them...and they mail an answer.

[Recluse]

Sorry newbi question here, but does this mean I can make small runs and sell them at a friend store??????

Thanks
Scott

Absolutely not.

You'll need a manufacturer's FFL to do that.

[Artful]

Years ago I was going to make re-mfg'd ammo for sale - after all was said and done I just sold the cast bullets and the label stated not responsable of use or misuse of the product not warrented for any particular use. The sue happy public and lawyers kept me out of that - the first batch of ammo was used by myself and friends due to liability insurance costs.

[Rocky Raab]

Their answer is not as straight-forward as you might think. They have LOTS of wiggle room in how they interpret "transfer" and "friends."

[ChuckS1]

I thought ITAR concerned international arms and was directly under the Presidents control..
Misouri bullets had to get his ITAR to ship to Canada.

ITAR is a State Department responsibility. For the most part, in the broadest possible terms, anything that can be construed to be related to arms and ammunition (including electronics, software and technical data, for example) requires ITAR approval, if done commercially. My employer, Lockheed Martin, has us go through all kinds of mandatory training on what is and is not export controlled. I can bore you with details, but unless you're shipping overseas, you don't have an ITAR issue.

Which is why, on Ebay, I don't sell molds outside of the the country.

[DLCTEX]

If you sell boolits commercially you will have to collect and pay taxes on the sales. These don't come under the responsibility if the BATF, I don't think. As usual, there are many hoops to jump through to do things on a commercial basis. Federal, State, and local regs all come into play. The obstacles to beginning business are many and , usually, prohibitive.