Hot .30-30 loads

[jimkim]

Search out some Paco Kelly articles on 30-30. Better yet, buy his book on leverguns. I like his outlook. He does not load "hot" loads. Only loads to the guns potential. There are times I want every bit of power and "flat" trajectory I can SAFELY wring out of a certain rifle.
Jay

I second the suggestion. Keep in mind you work these loads up just like you would any other. At the first sign of pressure back off.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

[jlchucker]

my dad had an expression,,,"you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear"...
a 30-30 is just that....a 30-30.....its not a high velocity cartridge,,,especially with cast boolits.....you want a good deer/ hunting load?....just stick with 170 boolit and about 1800 fps,,,it will do the trick every time

Yup! If higher velocity pulls your chain, then buy yourself a 30-06, or maybe a .308. But I doubt like h*ll that a 170 grain boolit out of a 30-30 at 1700-1800 fps is going to bounce off any deer, except in the minds of some gunmag writers and those that religiously believe them.

[izzyjoe]

gunmags well if all falls at least you got something to wipe you'r tale with never mind them are them slick pages.

[NHlever]

These days my lightweight .308 Win has become my "Hot" 30-30, and my 30-06 has become my warm .308. Brass lasts longer, and I have no worries about pushing the limit. The new .308 MX is a possibility too. I've found mild, and very accurate loads that always seem to do the job at any reasonable range. If you look at the ballistics tables you will find that it takes a LOT of velocity to make much difference, and a LOT of BC to show up much before 200-250 yards. Much beyond that, and it becomes game shooting, and not game hunting anyway.

[rickster]

In working with the various cartridges of 30-30 heritage, I have come to realize that the limitation on these cartridges is the thickness (thin-ness) of the case wall at the web. If you cut cases in half lengthwise and compare the 30-30, 300 Sav, 308 and 30-06 you will see that the 30-30 is relatively thin. So, the pressure needs to be kept down to the levels shown in the manuals. Since I have not dissected a Hornady cartridge, I would be curious to know if their brass is any thicker.

Quickload has the ability to compare powder performance in a given cartridge.
According to Quickload, IMR 3031, loaded to textbook levels, is still the king.

And I too am a proponent of the maxim that says…..If you need more power, get a bigger cartridge.

[helice]

Gray Fox,

I've got a buddy who shoots a 340 Savage Bolt action in 30-30. He tried the spire pointed stuff in it and found that the pointy stuff is too hard for that crtg. He couldn't get the 30-30 going fast enough for the bullet to expand. It penciled in -- and penciled out with a miniscule wound cavity. Don't think you'd be too happy with the pointy stuff. Those old timers knew what they were doing when they built wide flat nosed soft lead alloy boolits and pushed them to 2000foot seconds. They work fine. Helice

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've chrono'd a few factory rounds from other guys at the range. They are all suprised at the lower than advertised velocity and most think my Oelher 35P must be wrong.

Funny, though they usually doubt my higher than expected velocities for my cast loads over the same chrono.

Sure, I've run my 30/30 up to a little over too much pressure and saw the other side of 2200, but I dodn't load that anymore. I run mine at 1800 and am much happier with the results.

So Gray Fox, go ahead and work up some hot loads. You might like what you get. Afterall every one has there own ideas of music and shooting. Its part of what makes handloading fun and interesting. So, by all means load some pointy boolits and see if they work for you. They might. And as for a pushing the gas pedal, just watch your pressures and stop before you get dangerous. You just might get where you want to go. And yep, I agree 748 just might do it for you.

[Multigunner]

If a flattened trajectory is the main concern, perhaps a cast zinc alloy bullet would serve the purpose.

A zinc alloy bullet weighs in at 60% of what a lead bullet cast from the same mold would weigh. Bearing surfaces remain the same, but much higher velocities are possible without raising pressures.

A solid bronze bullet would also allow higher velocities.
The bearing surfaces and bulk of the bullet remain the same only the weight is lessened.
Wounding ability would be similar though with less expansion. The lighter bullet being more subject to dumping its energy in the flesh, but being harder more likely to cut through heavy bone.

[w30wcf]

Dissected Hornady Leverevolution 160 gr. amunition revealed a ball type powder in 35.5-36 gr. charges. It is not a blend of 2 different powders as I have seen mentioned.
Current Hodgdon data for 748 and CURRENT PRODUCTION BLC-2 comes close to the 2,400 f.p.s. ballistics in my rifle (26" barrel).

w30wcf

[Hiaboo]

Don't forget there's sabots for .223 which will go about 3,000fps but not what you're looking for in terms of bullet weight it seems.

[O.S.O.K.]

How about reaming to 30/30 AI? Ackley said the AI version eliminated much of the bolt thrust so should do well to eliminate stretching with hot loads.
I think I remember reading that he removed the breach bolt from a Win 94 and fired a round in the AI chamber and it held. That would sure be proof of eliminating back thrust.
BIC/BS

I stopped reading the replies at this one because it was what was on my mind too. Only I was thinking that this would allow you to get the velocity you want (+) at the standard pressure levels of the 30-30 - without having to goose the loads at all.

I've got a 94 and a Marlin 336 that I reemed to AI. Its a pretty easy procedure. The hardest part for you with the 94 will be the barrel removal.

Buy the reamer, use it once and sell it for 3/4 of the new cost - I used mine twice and sold my reamer for 1/2 of the new cost - only ran me $25/each that way.

[roverboy]

A friend of mine wanted me to load up some for him and load a little hot. I carefully worked up to 37.5 gr. of Win. 748 with a Fed 210 primer and Sierra 150 gr. FP. His .30-30 is a Model 94. It worked ok and we had no pressure signs. It kicked some but shot ok. He ended up killing a 8 point buck with it that next season. You talked about using pointed buliets. In a lever action you will run into o.a.l. problems unless you seat the bullets kinda deep. Helice said his friend had expansion problems. That will probably be a problem because most 150 gr. on up are designed for higher velocity. You might try 125 gr. They will probably be ok at the velocities you'll get. Just keep your loads at a length that they'll function in your action.

[Marlin Junky]

How fast do you want to go?

With a long throat and the right boolit (LBT LFN) you can approach .300 Savage loads. I use Winchester 32-40 cases trimmed to 2.09-2.10" (I don't know if this is too long for a modern 336) that hold near 48 grains of water. Winchester 30-30 cases hold about 45 grains. I have an LBT-LFN mold that cast boolits weighing 180 grains checked when cast of 50-50. These boolits HT'd at 485F for one hour and quenched in ice water produce a hardness of BHN 30 in one-two weeks. Then I stand them in a pan of water up to the beginning of the ogive and apply a propane torch to them for about 7 seconds (until I get a golden-brown nose... not me, the boolits ). Using this method I end up with a BHN 30 shank and a BHN 10-11 nose (.180" meplat). My "factory superior load" from the 2.6" long cartridges (for the time being because I need to check out a couple slightly slower powders) is 35-36 grains of DP-74 (I bought a lot of this stuff years ago). My velocity from the 24" barrel of an old 336A is 2400 fps.... YMMV. Next week I'm going to try out 37.0 grains of H-380. If that works out I'll try about 37.5-38.0 grains of H-380 because that'll be just about equal to a 100% density load. BTW, 36 grains of DP-74 is a bit too hot for summer time in the sun-belt. Shooting this load averages over 2400 fps during the summer but FL sizing is required after every shot.

MJ

[w30wcf]

MJ,
Interesting post. About 15 years ago, I pulled the bullets from a box of John Wayne Commemorative .32-40 cartridges and resized and trimmed them for my 336A. I found that the 2.09" length was just perfect for that rifle.

Regarding the Hornady Leverevolution, the 2400 f.p.s. claimed velocity would have been taken in a 24"-26" barrel. It will do that in my '94 Centennial Winchester rifle (26"). That is about the only .30-30 I will occasionally shoot J bullets in.

Last year I tested the powder from the Hornady ammunition against BLC2 and 748 in the same charge weight under a 160 gr. cast bullet in the '94 Centennial.
Cases & primers were Winchester. Here are the results:
Hornady - 2,448 f.p.s.
BLC-2 - 2,457 f.p.s.
748 - 2,348 f.p.s.
Cast bullets run about 50 f.p.s. faster than Jacketed

w30wcf

[felix]

A canister (for retail sale) powder will seldom, if ever, be faster than spec. Hopefully, the loading labs will get the fastest, on spec, powder to use for their loading data books. That data you furnished above seems absolutely correct. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
Interesting post. About 15 years ago, I pulled the bullets from a box of John Wayne Commemorative .32-40 cartridges and resized and trimmed them for my 336A. I found that the 2.09" length was just perfect for that rifle.

Yup, pretty cool, huh?

Regarding the Hornady Leverevolution, the 2400 f.p.s. claimed velocity would have been taken in a 24"-26" barrel. It will do that in my '94 Centennial Winchester rifle (26"). That is about the only .30-30 I will occasionally shoot J bullets in.

Last year I tested the powder from the Hornady ammunition against BLC2 and 748 in the same charge weight under a 160 gr. cast bullet in the '94 Centennial.
Cases & primers were Winchester. Here are the results:
Hornady - 2,448 f.p.s.
BLC-2 - 2,457 f.p.s.
748 - 2,348 f.p.s.
Cast bullets run about 50 f.p.s. faster than Jacketed

w30wcf

Again, pretty cool from the little old 30-30 case. John, next time try a little more lead and a little slower powder.

Regards,
MJ

P.S. If I ever need buy a new 336, I'm going to need a competent gunsmith that'll be able to reproduce my 60 year old chamber!

[MtGun44]

ELIMINATE BOLT THRUST !?? YIKES!

Absolutely impossible. You have something like 30000 pounds per square inch
or more inside the case. It pushes in all directions. The inside of the case has
maybe 1/5th of a square inch or something like that. 1/5th of 30,000 is 6000 pounds.
What is supporting this 6000 pounds if no breechblock??? What would even
keep the primer in place if you somehow magically held the brass in place?

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Gray Fox

I also concur that a read of Paco Kelly's 30-30 articles is in order if you want to load J bullets to such. I have been laoding them to such in my M94 AEs for some time. However my M94AE has a 24" barrel so my velocities are somewhat higher than what you will get with a 20" barrel. My M94 Carbine is an older one made in the early '60s and I do not shoot such loads in it. Paco does not recommend his loads for the older M94s either. The Hornady 160 gr LeveRevolution runs 2452 fps out of my M94AE with 37,800 psi(M43). That is about 40 fps higher than was quoted on the box of ammo. My Paco load with a 150 gr bullet using H335 runs 2527 fps at 44,400 psi(M43). That is the top end of the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) range for the 30-30. I suggest you look at Lyman's reloading manuals for data. My loads do not exceed that of the #48, 1st Edition but do exceed the max loads of the last edition of the #48 manual. You must decide what you want to do if you load those 150 gr SPBTs. However, the 160 gr LeveRevolution bullets are now available as a componant. I duplicate the Factory velocity with them velocity wise but the load(s) still produce 4 - 7,000 psi over the Factory loads.

Nothing wrong with a 311041 at 2200+ fps BTW.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

I get the 150-grain Lee RNFP up over 2300fps out of my 30-30 by pushing it with Reloader 7. The accuracy is better than with jacketed factory ammo. The speed is the same. I see no signs of high pressure, but that's as far as I dare push it. I save those for hunting. For plinking, I use a 1200fps Unique load.

[Marlin Junky]

I shot the 37.0 grain load of H-380 with the 180 grain LFN today and it preformed admirably in terms of group size (5 rounds into 1.5MOA w/ receiver sights) but the velocity with the old 336A didn't quite reach 2300 fps. Next week I'm going to run a string of 10 through the chronograph using 38.0 grains. It would be nice to know how much above 40K PSI these loads are generating. I haven't miked the case heads for expansion yet but they'll probably go just under .421" after starting at .418" (fresh out of the FL die). I'll double check these numbers and post corrections if necessary.

MJ