.50 caliber velocity ?

[10 ga]

I have the BRP mould for the 300 gr sabot boolit and it is nice! I posted a question earlier, on this board and it should be only a page or 2 back, on a potential Elk hunt next year and using hardened RBs to enhance penetration. Check the posts there, they are good. All my hammer guns are slow twist and CO requires open/steel sights and no sabots. My inlines all have scopes. My plan is to use peep sights and a hard RB in my .58. My hunting load is 110 gr of FF Swiss in the 58 and 110 gr of FFF in my 50. I may have to take a scope off of the Encore and use a peeprib sight and shoot the BRP TC clone. The Encore shoots it real good now. I use 85 gr of FFF Swiss behind the 270 gr clone and use a card/wad under the boolit. It's real accurate. 10 ga

[357maximum]

http://www.ricebarrels.com/velocity%20test.html

[Boz330]

I have the BRP mould for the 300 gr sabot boolit and it is nice! I posted a question earlier, on this board and it should be only a page or 2 back, on a potential Elk hunt next year and using hardened RBs to enhance penetration. Check the posts there, they are good. All my hammer guns are slow twist and CO requires open/steel sights and no sabots. My inlines all have scopes. My plan is to use peep sights and a hard RB in my .58. My hunting load is 110 gr of FF Swiss in the 58 and 110 gr of FFF in my 50. I may have to take a scope off of the Encore and use a peeprib sight and shoot the BRP TC clone. The Encore shoots it real good now. I use 85 gr of FFF Swiss behind the 270 gr clone and use a card/wad under the boolit. It's real accurate. 10 ga

You might give the 58 REAL a try if you want more energy and better ballistics. My Hawken 58 shoots the REAL almost as good as the RB and it is a 72 twist. When it comes to elk you can't have too much.

Bob

[Hanshi]

I have a TVM EV flint, .50 x 42" barrel. With 100 grains of 3f I chronographed it just under 2100 fps with a prb. That puts it a little ahead of the 30/30 & .35 Rem in ME. Of course in a ML it's not "energy" that puts game down. I took a couple of deer with that load (great load, accurate & powerful) before realizing I didn't need all that velocity. I now use 60 grains 3f all the time except when I go after deer and then I up it to 75-80 grains. With a large caliber 1600 - 1800 fps is all you need.

[buckweet]

I have a TVM EV flint, .50 x 42" barrel. With 100 grains of 3f I chronographed it just under 2100 fps with a prb. That puts it a little ahead of the 30/30 & .35 Rem in ME. Of course in a ML it's not "energy" that puts game down. I took a couple of deer with that load (great load, accurate & powerful) before realizing I didn't need all that velocity. I now use 60 grains 3f all the time except when I go after deer and then I up it to 75-80 grains. With a large caliber 1600 - 1800 fps is all you need.

hanshi , hey thanks,

also ? trying to figger out ? in your sig line ? shoulds you be hanging out with me ? or should i be hanging out with you ?
i's hatched a okie, in 60


hummmm ??? fffg in a fifty.
someone told me old rule of thumb ? small and up to fifty, use fffg, over 50 cal, use ffg.

[405]

Oh yes, necropsies are most educational about this stuff. I looked for and found in the hunting catch-all drawer a couple of RBs recovered from game of the past. Both are .54 cal and of very soft alloy- near pure lead less than 7 BHN.

The pic is of an unfired .54 RB, a RB from 175# deer, a RB from bull elk

The RB on the left is from the elk. Shot at about 80 yards. Facing nearly directly at me. The ball entered the "pocket" formed by the base of the neck and the shoulders. The ball was found next to the right side rib cage at the diaphragm. I don't think it hit any bone until it stopped against a rib. Track was above heart but damaged right lung and severed large CV arteries. RB recovered dimensions about .8" width X .3" thick

The RB on the right is from the deer. Shot at about 50 yards. Quartering slightly away. The ball entered the rib cage just forward the diaphragm. The ball was found embedded between two ribs on the opposite side aligned with the off side shoulder. IIRC the ball pierced a rib upon entry. Track was through both lungs. RB dimension oblong about 1.1" X .8" width X .2" thick.

Both started out at about 225 gr. and both lost between 10-15 gr. Both pushed by 85 gr. FFg BP to about 1450 muz vel.

Accuracy and shot placement are everything

[buckweet]

awsome.

thats just awsome.

makes me wonder how much harder a chilled ball would be ? but with peformance like that...

[Hanshi]

hanshi , hey thanks,

also ? trying to figger out ? in your sig line ? shoulds you be hanging out with me ? or should i be hanging out with you ?
i's hatched a okie, in 60


hummmm ??? fffg in a fifty.
someone told me old rule of thumb ? small and up to fifty, use fffg, over 50 cal, use ffg.

Hey, the young guys need to be hanging with both of us, then. 63 here. Got an uncle about to turn 102. Hope my sister and I inherited those genes.

[FL-Flinter]

One of my favorites is when I see the following question posted on the modern rifle forums ... "What MAGNUM do I need to shoot 1000 yards?"

My typical reply is something like this: "If you're only shooting 1,000 yards, you'll need the latest and greatest loudenboomer mega-magnum to get any challenge because the .45-70 burning real black powder has been delivering 500 grain cast lead bullets with authority at 2,500+ yards since 1873. Serious BPCR shooters leave the short 1,000 yard ranges clear for the folks shooting muzzleloaders."

Goes right back to what I've been telling folks for years, it's not about the numbers on paper, it's all about the permanent wound channel. Too much velocity is a bad thing. Not enough mass is a bad thing. Those don't just apply to muzzleloaders either. I made the mistake once, many years ago I shot a WT deer with a 180gr Nosler partition from my .30-'06 and I never did that again! Wasted more meat to bloodshot than anything and I wasn't happy about it. Of course there's the typical gun rag **** about pointed bullets and accuracy ... side by side, load for load, the not-so-sexy RN's and FN's shoot just as accurately to 300+ yards as any pointed bullet - maybe not benchrest groups but as good as any other hunting bullet and the less-sexy bullets running at less than MAGNUM speeds don't tend wreck all the meat.

The fact has been proven time and again ... any given projectile will reach a point on the velocity scale where penetration depth will be lost. There have been several penetration comparisson tests done using the same bullet within a range of velocities. One of them used a 500gr 0.458" steel jacket RN and found that running this particular bullet around 2,600 fps from the .460 Weatherby MAGNUM it produced around 36-40" of penetration in wet newsprint. Slowing it down to about 2,100 fps in the .458 Winchester MAGNUM it produced 48-52" of penetration but when it was slowed further to around 1,320 fps of the original .45-70-500 black powder loading, penetration increased yet again to exceed 50".

I don't recall if I brought this up here or on another forum but a softer the projectile will not produce as much penetration as a larger projectile at the same velocity, however, a harder projectile will expand less or not at all and thus produce a smaller wound channel. (while I'm touching on wound channels, forget all the BS about "hydrostatic shock" and "temporary cavity" because both have been proven to be just that, BS.)

With a PRB or paper patch bullet, hardness of the alloy is not a particular issue in most cases as far as accuracy potential is concerned as the patching takes care of sealing the bore provided it is sufficient to completely fill the rifling grooves and also gripping the rifling. When you get into shooting naked bullets, you need a combination of things:
1- Bullet must be sufficiently large enough in diameter to provide enough bullet to bore friction so as to prevent the bullet from being dislodged off the powder charge creating a dangerous air-gap/bore obstruction condition.
2- Harder alloy bullets must be sized at, or over, groove diameter as they will have little to no obtrusion when the power ignites.
3- Sub-groove diameter harder patched bullets must have patching sufficient to have a sufficient amount of interference fit to the groove diameter, not bore diameter.
4- Softer alloy bullets of sub-groove diameter may be used provided they maintain sufficient bullet to bore friction and they will often obtrude enough on firing to seal the bore - a sealing wad may be used but the wad and bullet should be loaded simultaneously so as to prevent trapping and compressing air between the bullet and wad that can, and often will, push the bullet off the wad creating the extremely dangerous air-gap/bore obstruction condition.

When it comes to using harder alloy PRB's, one must remember that the harder the alloy, the lower the mass of the ball. Harder alloy will also cast larger in diameter in the same mold used for softer alloy because there is less shrink on cooling. Even a small amount of mass shed off a ball will reduce it's down-range velocity and momentum potential.

When it comes to hunting, the size of the game and consequential penetration requirements will determin the maximum ethical shooting range. A .50 PRB is a good projectile in both harder and softer alloys and while the numbers on paper may show it having the potential of working at X yards on critter Y, always use the C.A.R.E. system...
C - Consider: Consider all the possibilities of what can go wrong with the shot BEFORE you think about taking it.
A - Accuracy: Know for fact the accuracy potential you can produce with your gun, not the accuracy potential of the gun.
R - Reasonable: Be reasonable with ranges according to C & A above and well as E below.
E - EthicalL: Also fits with R above as being ethical at all times.

[357maximum]

A speeds chart from TC. thought some might want to see it.

Seneca, 36 caliber
Round ball loads (.350", 65 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1894 FPS - 518 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 2034 FPS - 597 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2150 FPS - 667 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (128 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1761 FPS - 882 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 1843 FPS - 965 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2001 FPS - 1138 ft.lbs

Seneca, 45 caliber
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1584 FPS - 707 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1701 FPS - 816 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1800 FPS - 914 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1904 FPS - 1022 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1980 FPS - 1106 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1369 FPS - 915 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1456 FPS - 1036 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1541 FPS - 1160 ft.lbs

Hawken, 45 caliber
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1605 FPS - 732 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1720 FPS - 841 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1825 FPS - 947 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1929 FPS - 1054 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 2003 FPS - 1140 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2081 FPS - 1231 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2158 FPS - 1324 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1564 FPS - 1195 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1659 FPS - 1345 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1743 FPS - 1485 ft.lbs

Renegade & Hawken, 50 caliber
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lbs

Renegade & Hawken, 54 caliber
Round ball loads (.530", 230 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 815 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1469 FPS - 1102 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1654 FPS - 1397 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1761 FPS - 1584 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1855 FPS - 1758 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1931 FPS - 1905 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1983 FPS - 2009 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (430 grains):
90 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 1523 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1345 FPS - 1728 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1428 FPS - 1948 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1499 FPS - 2146 ft.lbs

Renagade, 56 caliber smoothore
Round ball loads (.550", 265 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1195 FPS - 840 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1285 FPS - 972 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1300 FPS - 992 ft.lbs

Source: "Shooting Black Powder Guns," Thompson/Center Arms Company, publication designation "CR October, 1980."