LR primer adapter for 50 bmg?

[dpaqu]

Any thoughts? Would it have enough spark for 220 grains of powder?

When I saw this it got me thinking.

My guess is if it worked someone would have turned out 50bmg brass with LR primers.

[shotman]

Well if that was the case they wouldnt have LR mag primers for the 300 win mags and the like.

[2Tite]

What about the same idea with a shotgun primer? Just a thought.......no charge.

[Johnch]

What about the same idea with a shotgun primer? Just a thought.......no charge.

Not a real good idea

Shotgun primers start to leak gas about 18,000 PSI
And blow the insert out of the primer at about 25,000 PSI
And yes I know from a few tests I ran with a pressure test shotgun and strain gauges
But not with plastic hulls

John

[shotman]

That is the reason for the primer cup in a shotshell.The brass shot shell has a little smaller flash hole. You are talking a LR at around 55 to65gr and a 50bmg at around 200

[dpaqu]

The biggest problems with the 50 BMG in my opinion is ammunition cost. Lesser issues are finding a place to shoot it, riffle cost, and its propensity for eating cheaper scopes.

I don't have 50lbs of suplus powder squirreled away so lets take a look at what this beast costs.
-100 once fired lake city brass 60-80 dollars. 60c
-690 grain j-word bullets from Widners 500 for 300 dollars 60c
-8lb of hogdon 50bmg powder 131 dollars. {(7000gr x 8lb)/220gr a shot} or 254 shots with one 8lb contiainer 52C
-500 primers for 132 dollars (that must be why they are available) 27 cents/

$1.39 a shot before brass and hazmat/shipping fees. 1.49 if you stretch your brass for 6 loadings although I have no idea how long this stuff will last in a bolt action rifle with full power loads.

Match bullets are about 33 dollars for 20 or 1.65 each.

Rockrat is working on a Boolit mold for the fifty and with lead at 78 cents a pound recycled value you could get a boolit for about 8 cents.(edit I forgot gas checks and lube) It would be great If I could just swag or stake a bushing into the brass so I could fit a magnum LR primer.

The .378 Weatherby case holds 110 grains of powder and was what Federal made the 215 LR mag primer for.

I have heard of people shooting the 600 NE with 900 grain solids with 120-180 grains of VVN 550.

[Linstrum]

Hmmm, they might go click - - - bang!

The one thing I'd worry about is the size of the firing pin dent, with the way my .50 BMG firing pin is set up right now it would thoroughly cave-in a large rifle primer. However, when I built the rifle I made provisions for easily and quickly adjusting the firing pin penetration depth as well as easily and quickly replacing it with another pin with a smaller diameter nose profile.

I have been shooting .50 BMG for a few years now, I shoot mainly "plinker" loads using the Lee 500-grain 0.515" diameter non-gas check boolits meant for the .50-70 Gvt. I size them to 0.514" for my Freshour barrel and lube with Johnson's paste wax by dipping the boolit in the can of floor wax and then wiping of the excess just before chambering the round. I use just enough WC860 powder to go "bang", I don't have my load data in front of me but I recall it is ten grams or 154.3 grains of powder. I am also thinking about working up ammonpulver loads for my .50 BMG shooting to get around the high cost for the rather large amount of powder a .50 BMG goes through in comparison to the other mislurp rifles I shoot.

I have considered using cheaper primers than the CCI #35 by modifying a few designated plinking-only cartridges to take a .25 ACP cartridge, that way it would use a small pistol or rifle primer, but amplified with two or three grains of Red Dot or 700X to ignite things well. My full house load cartridges I'd still use CCI #35 primers to make sure the 635-grain tracers and regular 685-grain projectiles get where they are going in a timely fashion without going click - - -bang when I pull the trigger!


rl576

[perotter]

Hmmm, they might go click - - - bang!

I am also thinking about working up ammonpulver loads for my .50 BMG shooting to get around the high cost for the rather large amount of powder a .50 BMG goes through in comparison to the other mislurp rifles I shoot.



rl576

I read your reports on testing ammonpulver last winter. As this has been an area of interest to me for the last 20 years, I decided to work with it again. A few 100 hours of research & a 100 hours of testing I've have them work in .38 Special pistols.

1. They don't need a booster charge of any type.

2. They are phase stabilized for -30 to 200 degrees. Simple, cheap & according to Olin it increases the burn rate unto the range of normal smokeless propellants.

3. I'm using burn rate catalysts beyond the phase stabilizing ingrediant, this allows for varying the burn rate to match the needed use. Some of these are in everyone's house. This greatly improves ignitablity. Also using these, the base rate can be can be increased to the point of being faster than the base burn rate of smokeless gunpowders.

4. The ISP in the same range as single based NC powders.

5. Costs $3 - $6 a pound. Can be less than $3. The cost variation is because of what is used & where it is gotten.

Long ways to go yet working out the details of processing into suitable sizes of the grains, pressure testing & base burn rates.

If anyone is interested, I'll post what I have written up so far. I working with something else for a few more weeks. After that, I'll be work with this again.

[Linstrum]

Hi, perotter, I'm all sorts of interested in your work! If you would post it or send me a Private message, I would appreciate it very much. I have found very little on the internet regarding ammonpulver beyond what the Austrians were using in 1900. There are a few things I know of that dramatically increase the sensitivity of ammonpulver, such as the silicone oils used in ordinary everyday lubricants, as well as a small amount of magnesium powder.

The stabilization I have read about uses zinc-ammonium complexes, and zinc-complex-stabilized ammonpulver with magnesium powder is being used quite successfully in rocket propellants for amateur rocketry. How the material is treated I have no idea, though.


rl577

[perotter]

Linstrum, thanks writing of your work. It inspired me to pick up the torch again. I stalled out about 10 years ago with the 1900 Austrian formula. I'll make a post now on this topic. First an update on the history of it.

Durring WW1 the NC that where used weren't chemically stable. They would auto ignite in storage. Also, the NC had to be boiled for 52 hours - expensive. After WW1, DuPont worked on making ammon powder as part of plan to overcome these two problems. During the 1920's methods to produce NC were improved and ammon and amid powder fell by wayside. DuPont used 8-26% NC to as the binder.

By the time WW2 was nearing it's end, in the US private individuals were starting to make and publish the info on making ammid power. This was for reloading as the cannister NC powder supplies were running out. A digital copy of their work is/was available from the forum member Dutchman. The book, "Primers for Small Arms Cartridges", is mainly about primers, but there are 2 powder forumlas/processes the AmN. They did proper test, like you did. These are phase stabilized, but I don't know if they knew it.

After WW2, until about the mid 1960's several US companies worked again on amid/ammon powders. Mainly in the area of rocket propellant, but also for rifle powder. Of

During the late 1980's thru 2009 once more the amid/ammon powder has been much researched for use as propellant for automobile air bag. The reasons for the use of it in air bags is cost, stability and the gases are not poisonous. Also, the French are working on ammonium nitrate firearms powders.

For myself the reasons for making my own smokeless powder are:

1. Self reliance. Ammonium nitrate can be made at home on a small scale. Safely, near fool proof & cheaply. If need be. 150 year old tech is easy to do now. What primitive man could do with primitive equipment years ago, primitive man can do today with modern equipment.

2. There is no cheap powder available today.

3. To learn more about how firearms work. Can only learn so much looking up how grains of powder xxx to put into case xxx using bullet xxx.

PS. link to the WW2 book thread. It was Dutchman not Swede. I guess the fact that Dutchman likes Swedish rifles was the cause of my confusion.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36134

[longbow]

I would also be very interested to learn more. Not sure I would make any but I would like to have the knowledge.

Everything gun related is now very restricted in Canada and since I live in a rural area, there are no reloading components available locally. The bureaucracy (licensing and proof of compliance) has resulted in no local gun shops (well one just opened but very limited stock), sporting goods shops no longer carry guns and most no longer carry ammo so foget about powder, primers and brass.

This leaves us with either travelling 3 to 4 hours in Canada to get somewhere with reloading supplies. or ordering in with huge hazmat fees. The local area I live in has about 30,000 people so we are not talking an isloated village here.

I used to drive to the States to Colville Washington but have recently been informed (I have the BATF documents) that it is no longer legal for non-US citizens to possess ammunition or reloading supplies in the States except for very few limited exceptions and they are not allowed to leave with it anyway! It is perfectly legal to bring ammunition and reloading supplies into Canada but not to leave the US with them.

Anyway, I am starting rant.

Knowledge is power and I like options so while I have no immediate plans of making propellants I do like the information.

Longbow

PS: Sorry, I deviated from your 50 BMG thread.

[perotter]

The stabilization I have read about uses zinc-ammonium complexes, and zinc-complex-stabilized ammonpulver with magnesium powder is being used quite successfully in rocket propellants for amateur rocketry. How the material is treated I have no idea, though.

rl577

There are also copper-ammonium complexes that are used. FWIW, this one was one of the 1st things tried/used for making non-corrosive primers. Didn't make the cut & I don't know why.

Back to the topic. The details of how to do it with these two is around. But it is, IMO, it isn't worth the work & equipment.

The easiest, cheapest & fastest why to phase stabilize it is use good old potassium nitrate or potassium perchlorate. This is what Olin says is their preferred way of doing it.

The following is by weight.

Using 7-15% KNO3 with the ammonium nitrate phase stabilizes it. Some wrote about this in the 1890s, but I guess nobody read it. I've been working with a 90-10 mix. 90% AmN & 10% KNO3. This should give ps been -20 to 212 degrees. That covers the normal range for me.

Potassium perchlorate may need to be 13% to do the same thing.

The processes for combining them are simple.

1. Combine the 2 with water. Heat & stir them until dry.
2. Combine the 2 without water. Melt & stir them.

For those who are new to propellants there needs to be some understanding of terms. The burn rate of smokeless NC powders is between 0.1 and 0.5. This burn rate has NOTHING to do with the burn rate we use in reloading. The burn rate is NOT changed by grain shape or size. What we as reloaders call burn rate is really rate of consumption. But to limit any confusion, I'm going to call the burn rate of a propellant 'base burn rate'.

The base burn rate of smokeless NC powders is between 0.1 and 0.5. The base burn rate of AmN is 0.07. As per Olin, a 95% AmN & 5% KN the base burn rate is 0.21. Well into to the area of NC powders.

I think that using potassium perchlorate(not chlorate) would give a greater increase in base burn rate. Two reason I think thus:

1. PPc starts giving off its oxygen at a lower temp.
2. Chem that have chlorine in them are burn rate catylsts for AmN. More on that latter.

The con side of these 2. Always is some.

1. KNO3 will make for some solids. And that might be smoke. More on this latter.
2. Potassium perchorate can/will create acids. It is indeed possible to keep this from happening, easily, by using a proper mix.

[perotter]

Burn rate cats

I elimitated high explosives, pure metal powders, primary explosives,unobtainium, etc.


Ammonium Dichromate,, poison see MSDS. This is what I've been mainly working with. It is said to be the best. It is available from the firework pryo chemical houses & Ebay.

Potasium Dichromate,, poison see MSDS,. I have this on, but haven't tried it. I is also a burn rate cat for KNO3. It is available from the firework pryo chemical houses & Ebay.

Salt, cheap & available, good. If tried this one & it works well. You'll have salt in the barrel, but you have to clean the gun after using amide/ammon anyway. Water form around a molecule of AmN when it burns. Chlorine interrupts? this. I have a paper that was written by some Russians that goes into the details of this. I've haven't really studied this.

Iron Oxide. I have this but haven't tested it. 2.5% is considered a proper amount, as per Japanese propellant workers. They say use 2.5% activated char with this.

Activated Char. I have this but haven't tested it. 2.5% is considered a proper amount, as per Japanese propellant workers. They say use 2.5% activated iron oxide with this.

Cooper Sulfide. Said to be good at 2.22%. I don't have this one & would need to check into it.

PVC, cheap - available- works as binder. I haven't tried this.

[perotter]

Binders & fuels

Propylene Glycol - used to treat livestock ketosis $18 a gallon -
Cellulose
Hydro Cellulose
Wood powder
Wood Floor
Sawdust
Cellulose Acetate
Cellulose Nitrate
Of course there are many others. FWIW, sugar won't work.

So far with success used:

Cellulose. I ground up an envelope. And followed Albert & Oelbergs method of combining. This should really be compressed before graining it. I haven't done that yet & it is kind of bulky. In my pasta roller I haven't been able to get it thin enough for the pistol. Next time I'm going to use my compression molding press. It has a pressure gage on it, so I'll be able to duplicate it.

Cellulose Acetate. I used cigarette filters. You can get them anywhere in the world. Cellulose acetate was used to make a test amide rifle powder in the 1950's. Standard Oil of Ohio, I think.

Cellulose Nitrate. Cheap ping pong balls. IMO, this is the easiest to work with & have a good result.

Cellulose acetate & cellulose nitrate lend themselves to being able to "sealed" grains fairly easily. The French powder company has been work with this recently.

For me, next up is hydro cellulose & Propylene Glycol. Those 5 will keep me busy of along time.

I've also done it without using a binder/fuel. Mix of AmN, KNO3, charcoal, & salt.

[perotter]

Tests & notes in the .38 Special with a 158 gr cast bullet. No NC smokeless booster charge. CCI small pistol magnum primer. Ruger Blackhawk pistol.

I haven't clocked these yet. These are just the starting points. Use/do at your own risk. There may be typos, incomplete info, etc. These are just my ruff notes.

Test mix #1

AN 73% 225 gr
KNO 10% 30 gr .
C 15% 40 gr
salt 2.5% 7.3 gr

Worked ok-good with mag primers & heavy crimp. 3.5 - 4 gr. Sieved with grease screen. 22 per inch 0.0455. Else doesn't work. Also added more cat up to 10%.

Test #2

AN 85% 255 gr
C 15% 45 gr
salt 2.5% 7.3 gr

Worked sometimes with mag primer. May have been damp. Sieved with grease screen. 22 per inch 0.0455

Test 3

AN 74.68%
KNO 7.47%
Cellulose 15.37%
Ammon Dichromate 2.48%

1. Boiled until water gone
2. oven @ 180 for 30 min
3. stood in oven for 3.5 hours
4. made 1mm thick & 1.5mm wide
5. oven @ 180 for 1 hour
6. into 0.5 mm thick & 1.5mm * 1.5mm squares
7. shot in .38 Special 3 & 3.5 grains - mag primers - doesn't work if compressed - 158 Lee cast
8. oven dried @ 180 2 hours & stored

Notes: Loaded(3.5 gr) & shot next morning. Worked fine. Looked to burn cleaner. Seemed more powerful. Has stomp.

Test 4 was with using instant potatoes. Problems & need to be revisited latter.

Test 5

AN 74.68%
KNO 7.47%
Cellulose Acetate 15.37%
Ammon Dichromate 2.48%

1. mix AN, KNO & AD & dryed. Ground in a coffee grinder
2. dissolved cig butts in acetone
3. added oxidizers
4. mixed with electric mixer
5. rolled to .75mm think every 5 minutes after it 'skinned' set unto screen to dry 3 times
6. striped 1.5 x 1.5 mm good strengh hold together well VERY GOOD TO PROCESS
7. dryed in oven 2 hours - very humid day imed water outside of powder to mistake on humid day may be RUINED
7. grained 1.5 x 1.5 mm
8. loaded 3 grains in .38 Special. 100% burn. 4 grains burn was not 100% & more stomp. 3.5 grains burned?


Test 6

AN 45%
KNO 5%
NC 50%
Ammon Dichromate 2.48%

1. mix AN, KNO & AD & dryed. Ground in a coffee grinder
2. disolved NC ping pong ball in acetone
3. added oxidizers
4. mixed with electric mixer
5. rolled to .75mm think
6. dryed in oven - mistake?
7. grained 1.5 x 1.5 mm
8. loaded 3 grains in .38 Special. 100% burn. 4 grains burn not 100% & more stomp. 3.5 grains burned

PS. Amide/ammon powders produce steam, so there is a puff of steam when shot. The NC mix doesn't have that & was totally smokeless.

[perotter]

I would also be very interested to learn more. Not sure I would make any but I would like to have the knowledge.

Knowledge is power and I like options so while I have no immediate plans of making propellants I do like the information.

Longbow

PS: Sorry, I deviated from your 50 BMG thread.

IMO, this book is a must have.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36134

I've tested 2 of the primer mixes, sort of. I used barium nitrate instead of lead nitrate. They worked great. I have lead nitrate, but in much more expensive than barium nitrate & harder to get. I'm saving my lead nitrate for non-corrosive primers.

In the US we can't easily buy red phosphorus, so for me those mixes have to wait until I make it myself. If you can get rp, my advice is to try those non-corrosive mixes. The limitation to that mix is shelf life when it is in the cup.

There are other non-NC smokeless powders that can be made. Also, it would be easier to get them working in a shotgun or pistol. I'll do a little testing on one day & report the 1st result. Both with store bought primers & homemade.

FWIW, one primer mix I've tested costs $0.18 US per thousand small pistol. That mix in a .50 BMG would be $1.08 per thousand. That's the cheapest mix.

[perotter]


amide-6 Run using June 1988 Version of PEP,
Case 1 of 1 18 Jul 2009 at 1:19:52.90 pm

CODE WEIGHT
134 AMMONIUM NITRATE 74.680%
268 CELLULOSE 15.370%
821 POTASSIUM NITRATE 7.470%
125 AMMONIUM DICHROMATE 2.480%

****************************EXHAUST RESULTS FOLLOW *****************************

T(F)
1566.


Amount of GAS AND solids(smoke) = 3.8918 0.0462

What the gases are.

2.36280 H2O 0.97969 N2 0.52842 CO2 0.03638 K2CO3&
0.01580 H2 0.00981 Cr2O3& 0.00388 CO 0.00109 KHO
3.39E-06 K 2.62E-06 K2H2O2


Energy
212.1

[perotter]

This is close to what WC860 is:

WC860 Run using June 1988 Version of PEP

CODE WEIGHT
683 NITROCELLULOSE (12.6PERCENT N) 78.670%
693 NITROGLYCERIN 9.500%
824 POTASSIUM SULFATE 0.550%
245 CARBON (GRAPHITE) 0.400%
231 CALCIUM CARBONATE (CACO3) 1.000%
340 DIBUTYL PHTHALATE 8.000%


The gas temp

T(F)
1265.



Amount of GAS AND solids(smoke)= 4.1645 0.0453

The energy.

IMPULSE
206.0

[ra_balke]

Er aah...
Not that I would suggest this to anyone..

I used to shoot ar 15.
The powder was 4831 GI type. 55 gr bullet.

To get a good push from the powder, I used to put x grains or so of unique on the bottom of the case, and then fill to the top with 4831, then add the bullet.

I never did chrono the load, but it seemed to shoot ok, and no powder chunks in the gas tube.

Not that I would suggest this to anyone. Elmer Kieth did the same thing in the late 1930 s and in 1940 during the war.

[Linstrum]

Hi, perotter & ra_balke

ra_balke, thanks for mentioning boosting your loads, it works great. A lot of us were doing that around ten years ago when the slow .50 BMG and 20mm canon powders like IMR5010 and WC860/WC872 were extremely cheap (2$ a pound). I shot thousands of rounds using 3 to 4 grains IMR4895 over the flash hole in full case compressed loads of those canon powders in 7.62x54R, .30-06, and similar cartridges.

~+/&\~~+/&\~~+/&\~~+/&\~~+/&\~~+/&\~~+/&\~~+/&\~

Perotter, thanks for listing your extensive data! That has saved me A LOT of research work. I have Tenney Davis' book and I recall reading mention of many of the things you just listed, but I didn't know where to turn to find complete write-ups that gave the explicit details like you have.

I have worked a bit with ammidpulver, which is also great stuff, but I was concerned about the residue it leaves, which gets right back to one of the big troubles with using black powder.

Again, thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to post your complete and extensive data.


rl578