M1 Garand in .308 WIN - just purchased ! LOADS ?

[Pirate69]

I think you will find this reference interesting. Lots of good information.
https://archive.org/details/hatchers...?q=Garand+ammo

As to the source(s) of reloading data, I assume it is developed by powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, military, others and makes it way into the printed manuals and other references. I am sure others may have a more definitive answer as to data development and sources.

[DoctorBill]

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I have the 49th Ed of the Lyman Reloading Handbook (2008)

and the LEE Modern Reloading 2nd Edition (2009).

Is it really worth it to spend $30 - $40 on a newer Reloading Handbook ?

If so which is best ?

DoctorBill

[Pirate69]

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I have the 49th Ed of the Lyman Reloading Handbook (2008)

and the LEE Modern Reloading 2nd Edition (2009).

Is it really worth it to spend $30 - $40 on a newer Reloading Handbook ?

If so which is best ?

DoctorBill

This may be all you need.

https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/

[DoctorBill]

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Wow....ya, THAT is nice !

I will put THAT website down as an Icon on my Browser.

I'd love to be able to get that program with Data on a DVD !
Then the Data could be updated annually - or so.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

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Well I am the proud owner of an M1 Garand in .308 WIN........
Got it this morning. Got home at 4 PM and passed out in my recliner.
Being 81 may not sound like anything to younger Dudes, but for me
six hours "up town" is about all I can do. It was hot today - 65° !

So - I got it home and put three 'sized' brass cartridges into it and they
fit like a glove and ejected well.

BUT - my sliding safety won't slide back - engage !
Cocked or uncocked (Trigger pulled - firing pin fired).

Am thinking, maybe it won't work until the Enbloc is in place. (?)
Don't want to put live shells in it until at the range.

Am going to run a patch thru it now. It is 65° out today.....been in the 40-50°
with rain and wind - Eastern Washington State weather. Midges are so heavy,
they swarm your head and fly up one's nose ! Ticks are heavy this Spring.
I live in the Palouse Farmland area where they grow Wheat, Barley, Oats, Rye
and Canola plants. The grass and Pine tree pollen can choke an engine filter !
I have 1.2 acres of Yard to mow and it is almost too high to cut. Excuses !

I will disassemble the M1 tomorrow and see what gives with dirt and etc.

The range is a Madhouse on weekends (open 2 - dusk 365 days) with all
the working guys who can't go weekdays. BUT - I am retired, so I go
weekdays when few are there !

I posted pics from the auction. One very beautiful thing. The stock is great !
The action is smooth - but may be better after cleaning and lubing.

I always liked a light coating of Lithium Grease.
I made a rifle Holder for cleaning. Also have a Cabelas' rifle holder from a
garage sale.

So - I'll Be Back ! More tomorrow. Pictures, too.

Any suggestions on that Safety not working would be appreciated.

BTW - The CMP case ( 50"x14"x5") weighs about 2x the rifle. One well made case !
Can one replenish the drying agent in that upper left flat Blue Plate ?

DoctorBill

PS - Hoppies #9 patch came out clean as a whistle.....

[DoctorBill]

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Couldn't wait...

Picture of rifling - camera on Manual Focus. Click the images.



Best I could do right now. Poor Depth of Focus. Need smaller aperture.

Oh well. Nice Barrel - clean. Now if only the Safety would work.....

Here it is in my homemade cleaning Stand on top of a Plastic Barrel.



Wiped the chaos of my work room....disgusting !

DoctorBill

[country gent]

I believe the rifles trigger group has to be in a cocked position for the safety to engage. On some rifles it takes a pretty good "pull" on the safety tang to engage it. The safety actually engages the boss on the side of the hammer and lowers the hammer of the sear and disconnector. The disconnector holds everything actually providing the 2 stage pull. the stop you feel is when the disconnector drops the hammer to the sear and the full spring force is there. When engaging the safety you have to overcome this spring force to engage it. You may have a rough ear on the safety thats gripping more than it should. Or a safety hammer combination thats not quite compatible do to tolerance stack ups. Remember these rifles have been rebuilt tuned up by swapping parts several times. It shouldnt be a tough fix once you get the trigger group out and can see what you have.

These triggers can be setr to a very nice fine pull. Its not recommended to go below 4 1/2 lbs but done right your holding 2 1/2 pounds on the first stage and the release is another 2 lbs added on. Mine is set up like this the second stage break is only about .010 more travel. A good service rifle trigger on the garand feels much lighter than it is. Another plus is these rifles have seen enough use that they are worn in a much better fit than can be achieved by hand. Also the wear patterns are visible now.

One popular conversion was to mill out the one side of the hammer to lighten it and add a heavier spring this sped up lock time of the gun. Usually the trigger needed to be tuned again after this do to the heavier spring. My m14/m1as have this mod but not my garand. This mod is a plus in the offhand stage more so than the sitting and prone. To do this mod you need carbide cutters and a solid mill.

[obssd1958]

Not sure if you got an operations manual or any printed material with your new rifle, but the following link is a great resource for new Garand owners (and some old owners might want a refresher!):
https://www.ialegion.org/wp-content/...and_Manual.pdf
The above has info you won't need, because it is written around maintenance of a rifle with a blank firing device attached, but everything else is pertinent and I like the format they use. The CMP forums also have disassembly and maintenance pages, but I don't think they are as easy to follow:
http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/fieldstrip.html

Hope this helps!!

[DoctorBill]

Thanks obssed1958 for that manual !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

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"...has to be in a cocked position for the safety to engage. On some rifles it takes a pretty good "pull" on the safety tang to engage it." country gent

Ah so !

I cycled the action (cocked the hammer) and pushed back on the "Safety" with vigor !

The safety engaged. One does not expect a safety to require such force to be applied !

Learning more about this rifle ! I was dreading it having a problem right out of the shipping box !

DoctorBill

[country gent]

A light polish on the engaging surface will smooth it some. but having to overcome that hammer spring its going to be stiff. It should come off easier. The other is the thins area of the safety makes it feel harder also.

When you have it apart look at the engaging surface and the pin it set on for wear and roughness. Its an amazing bit of engineering as the hammer spring powers the whole unit thru cams and direct push.

[DoctorBill]

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Was watching YouTube (streaming on our TV) about .308 Win vs 7.62x51mm NATO.


Would I be safe shooting either round in my M1 Garand ?

I don't expect to, but if I were to run into some inexpensive NATO rounds for sale,
could I safely use them in my M1 ? It was said that the NATO rounds are usually
less powerful than .308 WIN.

DoctorBill

[country gent]

Nato grade ammo is what it was meant for. Seriously if you can find some LC M852 ( the load with the knurledee case head) run some thru your rifle youll be surprised how it performs. There were 2 loads I had to work to equal in my 308 service rifles M852 and the federal match load 168 grn.

Another is if you can find military brass for the rifle it holds up better than commercial brass. The more violent extraction is hard on commercial brass.

[Larry Gibson]

For your M1 rifle I'd suggest not loading to SAAMI 308W specification with a MAP of 62,000. The 7.62 NATO standards for M*) Ball do not reach that pressure level. Having measured the pressure of numerous lots/years of M80 Ball most all have average pressures in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. That is because the specification for the cartridge is to give a 145 - 155 gr FMJBT bullet a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps at 75 feet from the muzzle....basically a 2800 fps muzzle velocity from a 22" barrel.

Thus, I suggest loading 150 gr (or 147 gr FMJBT) to 2800 fps using AA2230, H335, H4895, BLC2, 748, etc. or similar powder. If you load any 168 or 175 MKs then H4895 or IMR 4895 is the best choice to load them to 2550 fps.

Info in post #51 basically answers the question.

To be on the safe side you shouldn't shoot any commercial 308W, especially the "premium" HV loads, in your M1 Rifle because it probably is loaded to a higher psi than 7.62 NATO ball (M80). The 308W commercial loads will probably have a higher gas port pressure that may damage the M1 Rifle. Milsurp NATO spec ammo, commercial NATO spec loads and reloaded ammo to Nato spec is what you want to use.

[DoctorBill]

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OK......I suppose I have asked most all that I wanted or need up to THIS POINT.....

This comes to mind, however......is there any way to find out which company's propellant
the gubment uses when making 7.62x51mm NATO ?
Is THAT a big "Secret" ?!

Or....who manufactures the loaded Rounds for us ? Wouldn't surprise me if CHINA makes them for us !
A bucket of worms......

Just a thought.......

DoctorBill

[country gent]

More than likely what the government is loading isnt available to reloaders other than surplus from pulled rounds. I think 7.62 x 51 was loaded with a version of 4895 or H 380 I have pulled some that was a stick powder and some with a ball powder.

The rule of thumb is noting slower than IMR 432o

4895, H380, reloader 15 and varget have all worked for me.

[Kosh75287]

If this has already been mentioned, forgive me. The loads that I kept coming across for the M1A were 43.5/IMR-4895/147-150 gr. FMJBT, and 42.5/IMR-4895/168 gr. BTHP. IF MEMORY SERVES, Winchester commercial cases and Primers (Standard Large Rifle) were used. These data are not maximum charges but are very close to the middle of the charge weight range. I do not recall the cartridge overall length (O.A.L.), but I am certain that it was at or just under 2.800". 2.795" sticks in my mind, but it has been too long since I have seen the data I recorded.
If you assemble rounds with these data using Lake City or other military cases, PLEASE take into account their slightly smaller case capacity, and adjust your starting charge weight accordingly.
Generally, you will find that it is more difficult to find a propellant that does NOT work well in .308, than finding one which does. Given the prevailing "supply" difficulties with propellants, you may be somewhat constrained on what you may use. Generally, any propellant with a burn rate between that of IMR-3031 (faster-burning) and Hodgdon Varget (slower-burning), including these, should serve you very well. Typically, faster-burning propellants tend to work best with lighter projectiles (147-168 gr.) and slower-burning propellants tend to work better with heavier projectiles (>168 gr.).
Congrats on your new acquisition, and may you find great satisfaction in shooting it!

[Larry Gibson]

DoctorBill

"This comes to mind, however......is there any way to find out which company's propellant
the gubment uses when making 7.62x51mm NATO ?
Is THAT a big "Secret" ?!"

It's no secret. However, the government gets its powder by the train load from the plant in western Florida. Used to be an Olin plant but not sure what it is now(?). Any ways, it was referred to a WC 846 and WC 848.

The WC 846 is similar in burn rate to AA 2230 and H335. In Lake City cases the average charge usually runs 42.5 gr to 43.5 gr under the 147 gr FMJBT M80 bullet. The same WC 846 was also used in M59 ammunition. It was loaded to give the bullets 2750 fps at 78 feet from the muzzle. That 78 feet is where the center of the chronograph screens were. With modern chronographs with the screens 10 - 15 feet from the muzzle velocities of 2790 fps +/- are the norm.

WC 848 had a burn rate similar to Winchester 748 or BLC 2. It was used to load M118 Special Ball using the 174 gr FMJBT "match" bullets.

"Or....who manufactures the loaded Rounds for us ? Wouldn't surprise me if CHINA makes them for us !
A bucket of worms......"

The only arsenal producing 7.62 ammunition for our military is Lake City. In the past I have used Canadian made 7.62 NATO spec ammunition (IVI headstamp) and Israeli (IMI headstamp) which was issued through our depot system.

Numerous other NATO countries have manufactured 7.62x51 ammunition to NATO specifications.

China, along with numerous other combloc nations also have been making similar 7.62x51 ammunition for quite a few years. Additionally, some third world countries have manufactured [or contracted for such] 7.62x51 ball type ammunition loaded down a bit for their FALs, CETMEs and G3s.

[SSGOldfart]

Thanks for the thread DoctorBill I've learned a thing or two that I could have known before, just not able to recall at the time I've got a new M-1 also chambered in 308win. haven't put a round through it yet. but I will soon please keep us updated on your range reports

[DoctorBill]

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Something FYI....just found this.

St Mark's Ball Powder - Ball powder propellant has been made by St. Marks Powder since 1969. St. Marks Powder is located near St. Marks, Florida. Now owned by General Dynamics (GD) Ordnance and Tactical Systems (OTS) of Reston, Virginia. Not connected to OLIN Mnfg. since 1996.

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editoria...-powder/462658