Maximum speed with Black powder.

[john.k]

The Spanish tried to blow up a rolling block as part of selection trials ..........with barrel plugged ,and 270 gr of powder ,the gun could not be blown up.....This trial is widely documented.

[indian joe]

The Spanish tried to blow up a rolling block as part of selection trials ..........with barrel plugged ,and 270 gr of powder ,the gun could not be blown up.....This trial is widely documented.

"nothing is impossible to the willing student"
I blew the nipple out of one of my post hole guns - shredded the metal on its way out - used a half charge so 6 inches of powder then rammed in six inches of dirt over it - then spent about 15 minutes swinging the sledge hammer to drive that gun down into an old farm road bed - the mistake was the half charge - it was bottled up so tight that there was no place to go - the shredded nipple went what I believe was several hundred feet vertical, landed back with a clunk on the shed roof near me, tinkle tinkle plop right on the ground at my feet.

That roller that held either didnt have a big enough charge or wasnt plugged good enough else it would have blown.

[Sandro_ventania]

Today I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who made a .22 cal muzzleloader, with just an 18" barrel. It says in the video that he reached up to 3,200 fps with the lightest bullets.

[indian joe]

Today I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who made a .22 cal muzzleloader, with just an 18" barrel. It says in the video that he reached up to 3,200 fps with the lightest bullets.

do you believer it was straight blackpowder ?

[Boerrancher]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

With this knowledge in hand, it is easy to understand why it is possible for longer barrels and lighter projectiles to gain higher velocities. It also leads one to conclude that in most of our guns, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns quicker than we realize, and are most likely burning more powder than we need. I absolutely noticed this with my Colt Walker. I don't remember the exact numbers now but the difference in velocity with a 210 gr conical with 40 grs of 3F was like 10 fps less than with 50 grs. I will gladly save 10 grs of powder per shot and give up 10-12 fps.

[Sandro_ventania]

do you believer it was straight blackpowder ?

Yes I believe. The author made another .22 gun, but with flint... and in this arrangement it seems he couldn't achieve more than 2,500fps.

[Sandro_ventania]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

With this knowledge in hand, it is easy to understand why it is possible for longer barrels and lighter projectiles to gain higher velocities. It also leads one to conclude that in most of our guns, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns quicker than we realize, and are most likely burning more powder than we need. I absolutely noticed this with my Colt Walker. I don't remember the exact numbers now but the difference in velocity with a 210 gr conical with 40 grs of 3F was like 10 fps less than with 50 grs. I will gladly save 10 grs of powder per shot and give up 10-12 fps.

Friend, this information of yours is very important, it makes all the difference in understanding. Maximum 36,000psi and stops burning when it exceeds this value. Could you provide the source of this knowledge? I searched and found nothing! There is a black powder calculator, P-Max, which makes calculations showing pressures above that.

[nanuk]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

With this knowledge in hand, it is easy to understand why it is possible for longer barrels and lighter projectiles to gain higher velocities. It also leads one to conclude that in most of our guns, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns quicker than we realize, and are most likely burning more powder than we need. I absolutely noticed this with my Colt Walker. I don't remember the exact numbers now but the difference in velocity with a 210 gr conical with 40 grs of 3F was like 10 fps less than with 50 grs. I will gladly save 10 grs of powder per shot and give up 10-12 fps.

I watched a program about Bull, the Big Gun designer
I always wondered how he believed he could put an object into orbit using black powder... but this explains it a bit.
a LOONNNGGGG barrel, and progressive burning BP charge.... 36kpsi over a long time could generate some serious velocity

could this be why some muzzleloaders had long barrels? to allow the use of heavier charges for greater velocity?

some interesting thoughts come to mind.

[nanuk]

There is a myth (in some places) that blackpowder cannot generate high pressure - there is enough shredded steel down the pages of history to explode that myth (literally) yet it persists in some quarters. Where does that come from? unlike high explosives (or even modern smokeless powder) black needs to be heavily confined to do its best work - I dont know the full science but its about the burn rate - ....

I believe history is full of examples of improvised explosive devices made using metal containers full of black powder.

If 36kpsi is the max BP can generate, then the container would have to be unable to hold that pressure to work as designed.

I also believe barrels that blow up due to obstructions have a different principle involved, something about the moving projectile's momentum compressing the air ahead of it. This is very different than the pressure to accelerate the projectile in the first place.

[firefly1957]

years ago a club member had a 66 pound bench gun that shot a .54 caliber round ball over 250 grains of powder to 2500 f/s
I have a 40 caliber 43 inch barrel on my flintlock that with a patched round ball and 70 grains of powder will deliver 2275 f/s .
That long barrel gets the same speed from both FFFG & FFG powder .

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5720234]One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

Do you have a reference for this?? I have blown a post hole gun with black powder and from the look of the shredded metal though way more than 36K involved???

[Boerrancher]

[QUOTE=indian joe;5726150]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

Do you have a reference for this?? I have blown a post hole gun with black powder and from the look of the shredded metal though way more than 36K involved???

Actually I was being generous with 36,000 psi. Here are the results of the US Army’s testing of Black Powder. Please note that it is in metric measurements so you will have to do the conversions yourself back from atmospheres and Kg per cm2. This document proves unequivocally that if you blow up a black powder firearm it is because you did something stupid like left an air pocket, had a plugged bore, etc, or there was a flaw in the steal itself, because the Holy Black just doesn’t generate that much pressure.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA150455.pdf

[Sandro_ventania]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5727334]

Actually I was being generous with 36,000 psi. Here are the results of the US Army’s testing of Black Powder. Please note that it is in metric measurements so you will have to do the conversions yourself back from atmospheres and Kg per cm2. This document proves unequivocally that if you blow up a black powder firearm it is because you did something stupid like left an air pocket, had a plugged bore, etc, or there was a flaw in the steal itself, because the Holy Black just doesn’t generate that much pressure.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA150455.pdf

I tried to translate it into my language, but it wasn't good. Anyone who reads the .pdf, if you could paste the section that deals with maximum pressure here, I would be very grateful.

[Boerrancher]

[QUOTE=Sandro_ventania;5727554]

I tried to translate it into my language, but it wasn't good. Anyone who reads the .pdf, if you could paste the section that deals with maximum pressure here, I would be very grateful.

Go to page 28 you will find a chart that will tell you all you need to know about the maximum pressure. Keep in mind that different commercial powders have different densities, based upon the type of charcoal and the pressure at which it is pucked before it is corned. The more dense the powder the more powerful it is. That is why Swiss is one of the hottest powders on the market. Being you’re not a native English speaker, my guess is with the chart being in the metric system it will make more sense to you.

For anyone else who doesn’t want to do the math to convert from metric to Imperial the maximum PSI that the Army Proving Grounds in Aberdeen, MD, it is 19,201.5 PSI. Once again not enough pressure to destroy a modern blackpowder firearm in good working condition. If the pressure has no place to go, like a plugged bore, and you have a pipe bomb. That is why blackpowder worked so well in the pineapple hand grenades of WWI & II.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5727574]

Go to page 28 you will find a chart that will tell you all you need to know about the maximum pressure. Keep in mind that different commercial powders have different densities, based upon the type of charcoal and the pressure at which it is pucked before it is corned. The more dense the powder the more powerful it is. That is why Swiss is one of the hottest powders on the market. Being you’re not a native English speaker, my guess is with the chart being in the metric system it will make more sense to you.

For anyone else who doesn’t want to do the math to convert from metric to Imperial the maximum PSI that the Army Proving Grounds in Aberdeen, MD, it is 19,201.5 PSI. Once again not enough pressure to destroy a modern blackpowder firearm in good working condition. If the pressure has no place to go, like a plugged bore, and you have a pipe bomb. That is why blackpowder worked so well in the pineapple hand grenades of WWI & II.

sorry but I find your reply itelf contradictory

the statement that "blackpowder cannot generate enough pressure to destroy a modern firearm" ----followed by "if pressure has no place to go" etc ...YES!!! thats what we are talking about - when it has no place to go my contention is it has the ability to generate pressures way in excess of 36000psi - hence blown firearms , hand grenades or whatever. (plug the bore sufficiently with a decent charge in it and you will have a blown barrel, nipple blown out, ruptured case, -- something will happen that likely results in brown marks in your underpants)

I cant find anything relevant to this in the reference posted - that chart on page 28 is (looks to me) about the physical / structural strength of blackpowder in relation to compression pressure (density) not about pressure generated in the barrel ------did I read that wrong?

earlier in the article there was talk about closed bomb but it was brief and based on ideas and theory not an actual test ????

[Boerrancher]

[QUOTE=indian joe;5727601]

sorry but I find your reply itelf contradictory

the statement that "blackpowder cannot generate enough pressure to destroy a modern firearm" ----followed by "if pressure has no place to go" etc ...YES!!! thats what we are talking about - when it has no place to go my contention is it has the ability to generate pressures way in excess of 36000psi - hence blown firearms , hand grenades or whatever. (plug the bore sufficiently with a decent charge in it and you will have a blown barrel, nipple blown out, ruptured case, -- something will happen that likely results in brown marks in your underpants)

I cant find anything relevant to this in the reference posted - that chart on page 28 is (looks to me) about the physical / structural strength of blackpowder in relation to compression pressure (density) not about pressure generated in the barrel ------did I read that wrong?

earlier in the article there was talk about closed bomb but it was brief and based on ideas and theory not an actual test ????

The chart on page 28 shows the Maximum pressure generated by the density of the powder, in a closed system. Earlier charts show pressure based upon density of compaction, etc. Please go back and reread all of my previous comments about pressure. All of them start or end with the words, “unless you do something stupid.” The “something stupid” is leave an air gap or plug the bore in a manner that creates a closed system, and then yes it will turn into a pipe bomb, because 20,000+ psi is a tremendous amount of pressure. If you take your favorite rifle and double or triple charge it and seat a ball on top of it like you normally would the only things that will happen is it will kick like hell because of the additional payload of unburnt powder + Ball, you will have a huge fire ball and a bunch of unburnt powder all over the ground.

[Sandro_ventania]

"From helium density
measurements of carbon, density of 1.45, and density values for sulfur and
potassium nitrate black powder can be no more dense than 1.97."

I read this text and see the graph and all I understand is that it is about the pressure used in the press and the maximum compression achieved. It says the highest density we can achieve is 1.97g/cc. The other parts I read deal with the propagation speed of the flame under a certain pressure... I think I read a test carried out at 500 atm. I also conclude that if the maximum pressure were 19,200 Psi, it would be enough to make a closed tube resistant to 20,000 Psi that even completely filled with gunpowder and sealed, it would not explode. Is it really not? I still have doubts!

[TNsailorman]

I don't know the scientific mumbo jumbo about the can and can'ts of Black Powder but I do know that the old Battleships of WW II used the holy black and those shells would get up and walk between 2700fps to 3000fps depending on the type shell/bullet being used. At least that is what I have read in military journals. I once saw a picture of a 14" hit from the Japanese battleship Kirishima on the USS South Dakota. You could probably drive a compact car thru the hole made. That was with a 2000lb shell and in an area that had 8" inches of hardened armor plate. Think of the striking energy of a 2000lb plus bullet hitting a target. Black is not to be taken lightly and given the current politics and worst worsening situations, we may at some point be back to making our own black because the smokeless is not available anymore either by regulation or scarcity. just random thoughts and an old man, james

[M-Tecs]

I don't know the scientific mumbo jumbo about the can and can'ts of Black Powder but I do know that the old Battleships of WW II used the holy black and those shells would get up and walk between 2700fps to 3000fps depending on the type shell/bullet being used. At least that is what I have read in military journals. I once saw a picture of a 14" hit from the Japanese battleship Kirishima on the USS South Dakota. You could probably drive a compact car thru the hole made. That was with a 2000lb shell and in an area that had 8" inches of hardened armor plate. Think of the striking energy of a 2000lb plus bullet hitting a target. Black is not to be taken lightly and given the current politics and worst worsening situations, we may at some point be back to making our own black because the smokeless is not available anymore either by regulation or scarcity. just random thoughts and an old man, james

Black powder was used kicker for ignition not as a main propellant in WWII. Even in WW1 most used some form of smokeless powder for artillery.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-100.php

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS...php#ammonote13

[RogerDat]

I can't locate the Hornady (or whomever) that had load data with muzzle velocities for Inline muzzle loaders. I have one and use BP not the "pellets" so I went looking for information, found it, but can't find it again. I noted a diminishing return on bigger loads. Maybe 80 to 110 grains yielded an extra couple hundred fps. Velocities were around 1800 to just under or just over 2000 as I recall. At the time I was just interested in getting some load data for actual BP rather than just how many pellets I could load that everyone had.

After I had a load range it gave me what I wanted so I could go test for accuracy.

Those diminishing velocities made me think it would take a whole lot more powder to get one to 3,000 fps, more than would have time to burn in the barrel.