Primer Remanufacturing – Test comparisons decibel readings

[MUSTANG]

I have been continuing my experiments with Primer Remanufacturing. Over the last couple of years, I have been remanufacturing primers for personal use and firing them to establish processes that work for me. This includes using a variety of historical primer mixtures. Previously my tests were all “Did it go Bang”, with most information gathered being visual and not easily quantifiable.

To date; I have not been using the primers for actual shooting and load development as I still retain a good supply of New Manufactured Primers – except my Large Rifle Primer supply is dwindling downward so I am getting more serious in collecting good quality personal data for my remanufacturing efforts. There are some really good resources such as AARDVARK Reloading videos and MEWE, but those needed to be translated to my personal equipment, supplies, and abilities. This and future posts will be results of “My Techniques”, using my supplies. Hopefully with some Measurable and Quantifiable outputs.

The following were the general Techniques and Materials I used for Three Tests:

For all tests, I removed the anvils from expended Remington 9 ½ Large Rifle Primers forceps to hold the cup firmly and a Dental Pick to pry the Anvil out. Cups and Anvils cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner with Dawn Dish soap and Lemishine. Primer cups had dimples removed and the cups resized using the NOE Primer Cup Die Set.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/?s=Primer+Size+die


Test #1.

Used a 1/8 inch paper punch to cut circular disks with the blister centered from a roll of Toy Pistol Caps. A single 1/8 inch disk with blister was inserted into each of ten primer cups. Above the toy cap, the primer cups were filled with scrap Smokeless Powder (Collected from those minor dribbles and spills on the bench while reloading). A drop of alcohol/varnish mixture (20 to 1 ratio of 91% Alcohol and Liquid Varnish) was placed on top of each Primer cup and Primer mixture.

An anvil was placed on top of the mixture in the cup; and the primer with centered- but still loose anvil was positioned in a Lee Ram Primer (https://leeprecision.com/ram-prime) and the Primer was pressed into a .308 case; seating the anvil as part of the primer seating. The mixture is still wet in this “Seating Process”. I let the cases with newly seated remanufactured primers dry for 48 hours before testing. The while still wet primer seating (for this technique) facilitates the primer anvil being seated with the primer mixture “Desensitized” by being wet.



Test #2.

Used “Prime-All” mixture for this test (Reported to be equivalent to H-48 Primer Mixture). Each of the 10 Primer cups were filled level to the top with the Prime All mixture. A 1/8 inch paper punch was used to cut circular disks from cash register receipt paper. A paper disk was placed on top of the primer mix, and the paper disk/Prime All was lightly packed down with a wooden chop stick for each of ten primer cups. A drop of alcohol/varnish mixture (20 to 1 ratio of 91% Alcohol and Liquid Varnish) was placed on top of each Primer cup and Primer mixture.

An anvil was placed on top of the mixture in the cup; and the primer with centered- but still loose anvil was positioned in a Lee Ram Primer (https://leeprecision.com/ram-prime) and the Primer was pressed into a .308 case; seating the anvil as part of the primer seating. The mixture is still wet in this “Seating Process”. I let the cases with newly seated remanufactured primers dry for 48 hours before testing. The while still wet primer seating (for this technique) facilitates the primer anvil being seated with the primer mixture “Desensitized” by being wet.


Test #3.

I used “Prime-All” mixture for this test (Reported to be equivalent to H-48 Primer Mixture). Each of the 10 Primer cups were filled level to the top with the Prime All mixture. A 1/8 inch paper punch was used to cut circular disks from cash register receipt paper. A paper disk was placed on top of the primer mix, and the paper disk/Prime All was lightly packed down with a wooden chop stick for each of ten primer cups. A drop of alcohol/varnish mixture (20 to 1 ratio of 91% Alcohol and Liquid Varnish) was placed on top of each Primer cup and Primer mixture.

During this Test #3, I used the NOE Primer Cup Die Set to seat the anvil into the primer cup over the Primer Mixture. My goal was to be able to use my RCBS press for seating anvils into primer cups with a good level of control, and allow me to eventually remanufacture and store hundreds of primers for later use (as opposed to installing into Brass and seating anvil as was done in Tests #1 and #2). The parts used to seat primers in my RCBS press appear in the following photo:



I used the NOE 7/8 threaded “Bolt” inserted upwards into the RCBS Press (Screw it all the way up – picture shows partially screwed in). The goal is not to have maximum leverage; rather to be able to “Feel” the Anvil as it Seats into to cup. This is done carefully so as to not deform the cup with too much pressure.



The small Clevis Pin (found at Ace Hardware) is inserted into an RCBS #1 Shell holder. This forms the bottom of the Primer Seating operation. the See the picture below:



I tried it in the RCBS #3 Shell Holder for .308/30-06; but the Clevis pin does not drop into the Shell holder deep enough. Other Shell Holders may work, but I wanted the flat surface of the Shell Holder top to fully support washer that the primer cup sits in.

A washer (from ACE Hardware) with a hole just larger than the primer cup is placed on top of the #1 Shell Holder and Clevis pin described above. The primer cup previously filled with Prime All Mixture,1/8 inch disk paper, and Alcohol/Varnish mixture is set into the hole in the washer (See Picture Below):




The anvil is set on the top of the primer cup/primer mixture. The handle for the ram of the press is pulled down slowly until it touches the anvil/primer cup. Then the handle is lightly pushed down until one feels the anvil seat. Lift and inspect, remove the newly remanufactured primer – and repeat.

The mixture is still wet in this “Seating Process”. I let the newly remanufactured primers dry for 48 hours before testing. The while still wet primer seating (for this technique) facilitates the primer anvil being seated with the primer mixture “Desensitized” by being wet. When dried; the primer mixture is active.

Results/Analysis

I wanted to compare the results of different techniques and primer mixtures. The only “Measuring” instrument that I could think to employ for this application since I am not ready to load live ammunition was sound. I downloaded a “Decibel Meter” to my phone and used it as a scale to interpret the performance of different tests. The following table provides results of the three Tests.



Some analysis:

1. A single Blister from Toy Caps performed significantly lower than the other two. (Pfffft Sound compared to Crack from other two tests. It may require 2 Blisters to generate higher performance.

2. Seating the Primer Anvil in conjunction with the Seating the Primer Cup/Primer into brass will work; but does not seem to give as consistent primer ignition as seating the anvil as a separate step compared to seating the primer anvil/primer into the brass case.

3. The sound level for the process discussed in Test #3 was considerably higher; probably resulting in a more energetic primer and probable better result with Loads. I also believe the "Anvil Seating" is a better technique.

[dverna]

Very good post. I pray we do not reach the point where this is necessary but good information just in case.

[jonp]

Excellent post. I'm not needing primers right now but I am one of the many on here that just has to try new stuff out "just because".

[trapper9260]

Good post and report, I use a toy cap with blackpowder 3 F or 4 F and always gose off and works for shotgun primers too. Just need to add more BP in the holder. I like the idea of what you use for wet it so it will not go off. I had some of the shotgun go off on me , I like about the use of the press . That would make it easier to seat the anvil . I will keep track of you test . thanks for posting .

[Larry Gibson]

MUSTANG

Very well done. will be interesting to further see results of actual 308W load tests.

[barnetmill]

Impressive for sure. Your technique is very well thought out.
The decibel reading is interesting to test the overall power of the primer especially. Simpler actually than measuring the velocity of say a bb or shattering perhaps a wafer or actually igniting something.

[dtknowles]

Yes, nice write up. Thanks.

[lar45]

Very good information!
Will be following your actual loads with them.

[hporter]

Thanks for posting your methods and results.

I bought a set of the NOE tools too, but haven't tried using them yet.

[pworley1]

When we all start doing that they will outlaw toy caps.

[BLAHUT]

I pray that you have not found another vocation/job that many of us may need, the way the demorats are taking this country ??

[Land Owner]

It is assured that Inventors and Pathfinders are the leading edge of techniques that may become necessary for us all. The struggle is Real. Well done, Sir!

Should remanufactured primers become the Rule, rather than the exception, there will be, imo, fewer than 10% of reloaders willing, able, or capable of attempting these procedures. Not that they can't, or the meticulously described methodology is too difficult to learn, they just won't, or won't have the materials (spent primers and anvils mainly) with which to work.

For these and many other reasons, I started (late) keeping my spent primers, although I won't shoot through my supply of new primers in my lifetime, while increasing the supply of spent primers. They are "worthless" today. Tomorrow, who knows?

Someone will invent a separation method for large and small. Distinguishing cups between rifle and pistol may be recognizable in time too. Certainly, at once-fired spent primer separation, it would be beneficial to store each type with like-type. Separate storage according to its Manufacturer (i.e. CCI, Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc.), may be a bridge too far (at present). That's like (say, cause idk) twelve (12) Mfgs. times four (4) primer types, or (say) 48 different primer containers - a daunting task.

How many times can a "spent primer" be manipulated until it has become useless? I am thinking "work hardening" of the primer cup and eventual "punch through" by the firing pin.

Do you, can you anneal primer cups?

How do you separate anvils, small v. large? Another invention perhaps...

There are an inevitable number of unanswered questions.

[trapper9260]

For me, I keep the primers separated when I deprime and then label the container that I put them in. It dose not really matter the maker. it is the size of them that matters and when you take them apart you do the same. you will be ok. Because when you buy once fired cases or shells . You do not really know what primers that was used. On Shells watch out to see if they are US or European primers because there is a different in size . I found that out fast. If you just want to use US ones only then , BPI have a tool to do that . It works for me this way .

[dverna]

Land Owner, I see things the same way.

I am one of those who will likely never need to do this for a number of reasons.

I have enough primers to last a lifetime if I ration myself to a "reasonable" amount of CF shooting. But that is 10-20% of what I used to do. I can live with that if I must. Moved to other ways to get trigger time.

At 72, I am too old to worry about what will happen in 25 years. Primers are unlikely to become unavailable in my lifetime. Might be expensive but I can deal with that.

I am too lazy to spend an hour of meticulous effort to produce 50-100 primers. I will spend $100/k to get primers.

Part of my planning was making sure I would always be able to address necessities and that means defending myself/tribe. Hunting is a secondary priority if/when the SHTF. By rationalizing on 9mm, .223, .308 and 12 ga there is nothing else I need to survive. That ammunition will always be available (either legally or illegally) even if primers and powder were banned.

Today, 9mm can be purchased for $250/k. Reloading, using current component pricing, would cost me $160/k with cast bullets or $235/k with jacketed. Using my current inventory, cost works out to $85/k with cast and $150/k with jacketed...but I will not use up my supplies until I can replenish at "good" prices.

I would need to spend $360 to reload 1000 rounds of .223 and PMC is $400 delivered. My actual cost would be $220/k using my inventory of components, but I will not use them up'

I will not waste primers producing "plinking/training" ammunition. I am not alone.

But the good news is that the above prices for factory/remanufactured ammunition indicates primers are way overpriced otherwise those companies could not be profitable. So, primer/powder prices should come down.

The other good news is smart and/or lazy people are not reloading for the calibers (9mm &.223) that suck up primer supply when they can buy "affordable" blasting ammunition. Buying becomes their "new normal", and they stop reloading so demand for components will drop.

All to say, unless something strange happens, primer prices will get back under $50/k.

Casters are not mainstream consumers. Reloaders are not mainstream consumers. It sucks to need (want?) to shoot that .25/35, 7.5mm, .38/55, etc etc and not have any options. Being heavily invested in "obscure" cartridges and not having planned for bad times is a lesson to learn from.

[bruce381]

hey we re reload ammo and cast bullets why not add primers too kinda a natural progression

[MUSTANG]

I have discontinued the use of "Decibel Reading" with the remanufactured primers during testing. I was unable to consistently collate a relationship between the Decibel Reading and Boolit velocity and performance on Paper.

I have continued doing experimentation on Remanufacturing Primers using a variety of formulas. I wanted to start collecting more data than "Bang Testing" primers; or just validating they were actually igniting the Powder charge. Below are Choreographed data on a test last week. All 10 rounds had successful primer/powder ignition. The mixture used was the FH42 Primer Mixture (packed after filling to top of Primer cup, newsprint paper foil over Primer Mix, and a drop of 70% alcohol/shellac mix on top, dry for 48 hours):

Potassium Chlorate 15.6 gr.
Antimony sulfide 10.2 gr.
sulfur [S] 7.3 gr.
Aluminum Powder [AL] 0.2 gr.
Sodium Bicarbonate 0.2 gr.
Total FH42 mixture weight 33.5 Grains


Rifle: Remington 700 ADL Varmint .308
Barrel Twist: 1 in 12
Wind: 5 Mph left to right.
Temp: 60 degrees F.
Boolit: 308 RCBS 200 Silhouette – Lubed
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.255
Brinell Hardness: 20
Bullet sized: .310
Alloy: 96% Lead, 3% Antimony, 1% Tin
Bullet Powder Coated: (No) As cast boolit with Rooster Red lube.
Gas Check: Ameri-max Aluminum 0.14”
Powder: BLC-2 29.3 Grains with a Dacron Filler
Primer: Remanufactured Remington 9 1/2 primer cup - FH42 Primer Mixture
Case: PMC Brass
OAL: 2.80 inches
Distance: 100 Yards.



This was a 10 round test, Unfortunately the Lab Radar Chronograph only registered velocity for 5 of the 10 shots.

1785
1872
1861
1837
1862
1844 fps Average velocity.

[Idz]

A couple of things I did to test primers and caps. 1) Build a drop tube ( 1" PVC) with cross-drilled holes every 1" then use a 4 ounce steel weight to drop from known heights onto the cap or a firing pin. This mimics the way commercial outfits determine the primer all-fire energy and measures consistency. 2) Place a piece of paper an inch or so below the drop tube to 'photograph' the primer spray pattern to measure consistency and see how much spray the primer puts out.

[MUSTANG]

It is assured that Inventors and Pathfinders are the leading edge of techniques that may become necessary for us all. The struggle is Real. Well done, Sir! .........


How many times can a "spent primer" be manipulated until it has become useless? I am thinking "work hardening" of the primer cup and eventual "punch through" by the firing pin. I am going on 11 "Remanufacturing Cycles" for some of the Primer Cups to date.

Do you, can you anneal primer cups? NO I have not annealed any Primer Cups

How do you separate anvils, small v. large? I separate SP/SR/LP/LR when deprimeing. I further separate each of the 4 types by "Silver Colored" primers and Brass (nonplused) Primer cups. All then go into different large Vitamin Plastic Jars. After picking the anvils out with a dental pick; I keep the anvils separated from Primer Cups, each in two different smaller Plastic Pill Bottles - rubber band holding the two together for Remanufacturing the Primers as a batch later. Another invention perhaps........

There are an inevitable number of unanswered questions.

See my responses in blue above.

[GONRA]

GONRA sez - wear first class eye protection
when shootin' ammo using salvaged primer cups!

[deces]

The primer reloading Rabbit hole is becoming easier to navigate.
https://aardvarkreloading.com/index.html