41 special?????

[KevMT]

I've seen a couple of articles floating around the web about the 41 special. The 41 special cases are formed by trimming back 41 mag cases to 44 special length. It seems that the logic goes that if you are to used reduced loads in the 41mag, the reduced case capacity of the "special" makes for better load performance? Sounds good to me but when I looked at the case length of the special it only seems to be about .14" shorter than the mag. Can this much difference in case length really make that much difference? And if it does it would seem that with many boolits simply deep seating them (with appropriatly reduced chares) would give the same result without the nessesity of trimming the cases? Gotta admit that my 41 is my only handgun. Some of you folks with experiance in 38 spec/357's and 44spec/44mag may have some better insight into this.

[Cherokee]

In your case, I would simply down load 41 Mag, which is what I do. My experience with 38/357 has been mixed. Some real good 38 special loads turn bad when loaded in 357 Mag case and shot in the same gun. You can also load 38 special close to mag levels in a mag gun. Had the same thing happen in 44 special and mag. The appeal of the 41 special is for smaller framed guns . JMHO, YMMV

[felix]

Kevin, I'd pass on that 41 special idea. Why? Because the 41 mag case has a large pistol primer. The mag case length has an over-ignition problem, and a shorter case would make that even worse. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

I don't see the point of the 41 Special if you already have a 41 Magnum. 210 grain SWC's at 900-950 FPS shoot so well from my Blackhawk and a friend's M-57 x 4", that's about the only load we use. Powder doesn't seem to matter a lot--WW-231, Bullseye, Unique, Herco all work with standard LP primers.

[StarMetal]

Back some time ago either in Guns&Ammo or Shooting Times, someone did an article on that short 41, but it was for a special made up single action revolver. I forget the circumstances as to why it had to be a shortened 41 mag but there was a reason.

Joe

[KevMT]

I don't see the point of the 41 Special if you already have a 41 Magnum. 210 grain SWC's at 900-950 FPS shoot so well from my Blackhawk and a friend's M-57 x 4", that's about the only load we use. Powder doesn't seem to matter a lot--WW-231, Bullseye, Unique, Herco all work with standard LP primers.

Well in my own reduced loads with 700x and imr 4227 I've seen some pretty severe vertical stringing. I was wondering if it wasn't due to erratic ignition with low charges.

[felix]

The primer selected is very important in this literal case size. You want the softest one you can find, and that probably cannot be deciphered by brand because of the various lot numbers. The federal 150 large pistol standard primer used to be the hottest burning giving the least amount of force, and that is the one to use. Most primers have too much force, blowing the boolit out of the case way too quickly for the powder to do its designed specs. Suggestion is to try the federal 150's. The additional upside of these primers is that they typically are easiest to strike because their cups are "thin". But, that is a downside for the heavy duty loads, and for them I use the remington standard pistol primers. ... felix

[KevMT]

The primer selected is very important in this literal case size. You want the softest one you can find, and that probably cannot be deciphered by brand because of the various lot numbers. The federal 150 large pistol standard primer used to be the hottest burning giving the least amount of force, and that is the one to use. Most primers have too much force, blowing the boolit out of the case way too quickly for the powder to do its designed specs. Suggestion is to try the federal 150's. The additional upside of these primers is that they typically are easiest to strike because their cups are "thin". But, that is a downside for the heavy duty loads, and for them I use the remington standard pistol primers. ... felix

You know felix, primers are definatly an area where I have not experamented much. Typically all my loads have been done with CCI large pistol primers. But I'll give the federal 150's a try.

Kev

[doghawg]

All I use is Win LP primers and have never had a problem with them. A 210 gr. cast bullet over 7 1/2 gr. of Unique and Win LP primer makes a good "special" load in any of four .41 Mags. in my experience. I personally don't see any big advantage in the .41 Special except for a custom gun built on a small frame for concealed carry possibly.

[floodgate]

Guys:

The original concept of the ".41 Special" was very different, and long precedes the advent of the .41 Magnum. The idea was a modernization of the old .41 Colt, using the latter's (and the .38-40's) .401" groove diameter with an inside lubed bullet in a case of increased diameter (allee samee the .44 Russian vs. the heel-crimped .44 American), and of ".38 Spl. / .44 Spl" length. This would upgrade the 6-shot .41 Colt frame revolvers like the Official Police, and provide a 5-shot medium-caliber piece on the S & W M&P's K frame, starting with the Ideal #40143 bullet. "Pop" Eimer, made some of these up using cut-down .401 WSL cases, on Colt SAA's, back in the '30's. A number of us were working on a similar idea in the '70's, my gunsmith buddy and I using cut-back and reamed-out .303 Savage cases with a .357 Ruger "Flattop" test bed, and a 5-shot conversion of an couple of old .38 Spl. "Gold Seal" S&W M&P's, when the .41 magnum hit the market, with its .410" groove specs and the N-frame S&W in six-shot format, and changed the whole picture. The smaller S&W's ended up, with some HEAVY mods, as a pair of 5-shot "K-44's" in .44 Special, but that is a story I've already told, so I won't bore you with it. (Makes a bitchin' carry piece, though.)

Floodgate

[9.3X62AL]

Doug et al--

IIRC, the 400 Eimer landed right in the middle between the 40 S&W and 10mm in power. Same boolit diameter, too. Oh, yeah--the 10 and the 40 are just brand, spanking new all right.

It's no state secret that a 180 grain bullet going 950-1100 FPS is a real fine social engineering item. I would venture to say that the 41 Magnum lead bullet load was likely the best purpose-built defensive revolver caliber ever crafted--the Model 58 is an absolute classic.

The 45 Colt is no slouch, either--once its dimensions are all squared away. The 44 Special would be better with a bit more oomph and something other than the RN 246 grain bullet. But--a 5-shot 3" K-frame round butt in 400 Eimer would beat out even the 41 for a carry piece.

[Hackleback]

I think I would try a can of Trail boss first. This may be the most simple way to make a 41 special.

[KevMT]

I think I would try a can of Trail boss first. This may be the most simple way to make a 41 special.

Agreed. Unfortunatly I have seen no data for the 41 mag. and trail boss. I even e-mailed Hodgedon to ask that they PLEASE not leave the 41 mag out when developing low power cast (Cowboy) load data for trail boss. I recieved a reply from a tech with Hodgedon who sent me a quite a bit of data for the 41 mag with a large variety of boolits and powders which is not shown on their web site?????
However there was no Trail Boss data.

The data does show some "special" level loads with cast that I am going to try. Particularly there are some heavy boolit (240g+) lite charge loads with Titegroup that am interested in trying because I have a 6 cavity 240g mold.

If anyone wants a copy of the data send me a PM.

My interest in the "41 special" case length stems from some folks claims that the shorter case would work better in reduced loads.

http://www.reloadingroom.com/page11.html

However, Felix points out that this may not fly in the "makes sense" department.

Kev

[475/480]

I have found a case full of WC680/AA1680 in any of the MAG cases makes for a good special load,the reason I use WC680 is I usually have a couple 8 lb jugs at the house,I much prefer a case full of powder ,less chance of a double charge.

Sean

[HORNET]

IIRC, there was an article in Gun Digest #56 (2002) about the .41 Special. The writer recommended using powders in charges appropriate for the 44 Special with 246 gr. cast. This remains a very good way to get more mileage out of Mag cases when the mouths start to crack. He claimed that he had trouble finding a load that didn"t shoot well, kind of like using .38 cases for light loads vs. using full length .357"s.
If you want some real fun, I recall Russ Gaertner writing in Handloader about an eon ago about forming short .41 cases from .45 Auto brass (too much work for my liking).

[KevMT]

IIRC, there was an article in Gun Digest #56 (2002) about the .41 Special. The writer recommended using powders in charges appropriate for the 44 Special with 246 gr. cast. This remains a very good way to get more mileage out of Mag cases when the mouths start to crack. He claimed that he had trouble finding a load that didn"t shoot well, kind of like using .38 cases for light loads vs. using full length .357"s.

Hornet, the link above appears to be a reprint of the article you are refering to.

Kev

[Hackleback]

There is an article in the winter issue of Black Powder Cartridge news on Trail boss. the author says he is using 6gr in his .41 Black hawk. Don't take my word for it; read the article and make your on decision.

[26Charlie]

If I recall correctly, the G&A .41 Special article was about converting the original small-frame Blackhawk .357 Mag to a larger caliber. It was also converted to the .44 special by some, John Taffin comes to mind. The cylinder is not long enough to handle the full-length .41 Mag, I think. The Blackhawk went to all .44 Mag frame-size sometime in the 1970's or 80's, including the .357 Mags ( I have one of each size). The reintroduction this past year of the small-frame flattop .357 and the Vaqueros in .357 and .45 Colt will make a lot of shooters happy, including those who want a .41 Special conversion.
The part about more efficient low level loads is probably mere self justification.

[KevMT]

There is an article in the winter issue of Black Powder Cartridge news on Trail boss. the author says he is using 6gr in his .41 Black hawk. Don't take my word for it; read the article and make your on decision.

Hackleback. Is that issue 51?

Kev

[Lloyd Smale]

the cyl in an old model is long enough for .41 mag ammo but it will be selective about the bullets you can use if you want to crimp in the crimp grove a 210 grain bullet is about the max in size you can use. I have an old model converted and its worked real well. FOr heavier bullets i just crimp above the top driving band with a lee crimp die. Felix i have never experienced the problems you have with primmers in the .41s. I do use mostly fed primmers and have a single six that was converted to a 5 shot 41 special by galagher and it will shoot under an inch at 25 yards with loads it likes while pushing a 210 to 1000fps. It does however suffer from the same problem as the old model as it needs to use short bullets.

If I recall correctly, the G&A .41 Special article was about converting the original small-frame Blackhawk .357 Mag to a larger caliber. It was also converted to the .44 special by some, John Taffin comes to mind. The cylinder is not long enough to handle the full-length .41 Mag, I think. The Blackhawk went to all .44 Mag frame-size sometime in the 1970's or 80's, including the .357 Mags ( I have one of each size). The reintroduction this past year of the small-frame flattop .357 and the Vaqueros in .357 and .45 Colt will make a lot of shooters happy, including those who want a .41 Special conversion.
The part about more efficient low level loads is probably mere self justification.