Keith SWC vs. RNFP

[cabezaverde]

Assume the same size meplat, weight, and same velocity.

Would there be a substantial difference in performance on deer size game?

[James C. Snodgrass]

No . The meplat does all the work and if the wght was the same and vel the same the sectional density would be similar as well. So they should perform the same .The benefit of Elmer's bullet would just be the (CF) . (CF) is the cool factor which shouldn't be under estimated . Good luck James

[Heavy lead]

There are arguements both ways. I've used both, and had good luck with both. I've heard and read that a swc cuts at the meplat and driving band. And I've heard nope, just the meplat. All's I know is dead is dead, hit them in the boiler room with a fairly wide meplat and they are dead. Keith boolits seem to be a might more accurate for me, but I tend to not hot rod a load.

[kooz]

The sharp shoulder of the Keith style bullet will cut a full caliber wound channel through the animal and will cause it to bleed out good and leave an easy to follow trail. This has been the case with the deer I have shot with the Keith style bullets. I have used both of the bullets you have asked about on whitetails, and both are killers, but the Keith bullets made a better blood trail and the animals didn't go as far after being hit. Whitetails aren't hard to kill, you will be good with either bullet, but my experiences using both have shown the Keith bullet to be a better killer. Good luck

[kir_kenix]

I would think that if the meplat, weight, and velocity are the same, you would be hard pressed to see any differences in the terminal balistics.

The only way to settle this is to actaully establish some tests and see the differences. Modeling clay or some sort of other balistic medium could be used to compare the wound channel differences. I (and I'm sure many others) would be very interested in any results if you come up with them.

[yondering]

I've often wondered what the truth is about this as well; and reading this, I just now realized I have two molds that would work for this test - the Lee 452-255 RF and an old Lyman 454424. Both cast about the same weight, and have about the same size meplat.
When I get a chance I'll shoot them into some wet newspaper. I've found that to be relatively easy to set up, and closest to "meat" consistency of any readily available test medium.

There was an article in one of the recent gun rags (Handloader, I think) supposedly proving that the shoulder of the Keith bullets cut, but in my opinion, they did the test wrong and proved nothing. They colored the bullets with permanent marker, then fired them into fine sand, and looked at the marks on the bullet. I don't remember if it was wet sand or dry, but either way, sand isn't the same as meat and guts, so I don't think it proves anything. They didn't seem to think of that one minor detail.

[Bigscot]

Yonderling,

Brian Pearce wrote that article in the current issue ( not Nov-Dec) issue of Handloader.

Bigscot

[Bass Ackward]

There is and there is not a material advantage. It just depends. Did your bullet hit anything to expand it or not? Remember, there is no perfect world in bullet shape at these velocity levels.

If velocity is high enough, the spray off the meplat does the cutting, which is how you get a larger than caliber hole. It is true that the shoulder of a Keith will cut if your velocity drops down too low. But that is a failure on the part of the operator for not testing properly prior to use.

In truth, the argument is mute. Because you should have either raised strike velocity, increased bullet weight to compensate for the slowdown in material and the distance traveled, or you should not have shot at such a far distance.

Translation: if everything is planned and done correctly, no difference will be observed assuming equal dimensions and strike velocity. And if your meplat mushroomed, then it formed an umbrella and hid what ever was coming behind it anyway.

[44man]

Yeah, I read that article and called him an idiot.
If you watch a shadow graph of the flat nose in flight, you will see the nose waves being forced away from the sides of the boolit. Flesh and liquid flow the same as air. That tiny edge does not touch anything to do any cutting. The nose is doing the work, forcing everything away from it.
When an animal is hit, the hide is poked in a great deal before the boolit breaks through. The same happens on exit. I have watched slow motion video of projectiles on the way out of deer. It is amazing the distance the hide stretches. This is why the holes are larger then the nose. It also drags more hair into the wound as it and hide is scraped/cut off.
The edge of a semi wadcutter is useless for anything but paper.
Given a truncated cone and a semi wadcutter with the exact same meplat, the results are exactly the same and holes from both will be the same size.
I think that if you actually measure the hole in the hide from a semi wadcutter, you will find is is not exact caliber but is a little LARGER.
I don't have a dead deer in front of me but I will do some measurements when season opens. I am going by memory of the holes.
The same happens with an arrow, entry and exit holes are a little larger then the width of the cutting edges.
How about more input on this idea, I have to wait until nov to measure.

[Firebird]

Just my observation that the meplats of RNFP aren't close to being the same as a Keith SWC. To get a "round nose" shape, the meplat just can't be as big as one of a SWC. When you try, you end up closer to a LFN shape, but still with a smaller meplat than a true LFN.

[GLynn41]

I have killed a few with each -- and noticed that the Keith usually makes afull cal. hole in at least -- it is normally larger in meat and the shoulder will cut things that will not splash--such as ribs etc-- with the lBT --I have seen curl back toward you--on impact and a larger than cal. holes- I have shot normal Keith bullets with the 265 meplat(.41) and a 31 meplat keith leadheads -- and the holes in wet paper were no so different---- I love Keiths and have two molds for the Lyman 410459 and sold a wonderfull Saeco 220 keith-- I have not proved to me that the large meplat Keith is that much better than the normal --what ever that is - in my test with wet paper and shoots fired there does not seem to be too much difference between the two -- althouhg it should seem to be-I will still hunt will keiths and still want the the larger meplat - last thing on a heart shot with the original 1980s Lyman 410459 the 226 gr bullet made a thumb size hole --very ragged in the heart-my thumb according to my calipurs is aobut .8- entrance hole was .41 size - an LBT .32 meplat made .80+ holes in but stayed about the same in or out - sense I handled both deer--eh they both died

[runfiverun]

i agree with bass and 44 man.
the inner tissue damage i have seen with my rnfp's is more then a full roundnose is.
and the exit wound is always bigger. [so far i haven't recovered a boolit]
but the animals are dead.
the supposed advantage to a keith is that it travells straight in an animal.
can't argue for either side.
i do use a keith in my 44 and a rnfp in my 45 same load and nearly the same boolit weight.
same results and i only change them out cause i use the carbine in one and a full rifle for the other.

[yondering]

Bass and 44 Man, those were my thoughts as well, based on my knowledge of physics and fluid dynamics; I just don't have the cast boolit hunting experience to back it up.

Gotta love it when the magazine people "prove" something like bullet performance without actually shooting any animals!

[TexRebel]

maybe this link can help some
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm

[kooz]

Gotta love it when the magazine people "prove" something like bullet performance without actually shooting any animals![/QUOTE]

Very funny and very true, lets also add internet professionals to that statement.

[45Spades]

He did report the results on live animals that included mule deer, elk, bear and cattle. Reread the article. I'm not arguing that you opinion is wrong or right. But the article clearly states his results of Keith bullets on animals in the field.

[45Spades]

Some may call Brain Pearce an idiot but I dare say that few men would call Brian Pearce an idiot to his face. Brian is one of us. His tests and results come from real world experience. I may not agree with all he reports but I still can respect his opinion without insulting his intelligence.

My question is "Why does the front driving band show wear in a recovered bullet from an animal?" I can't say from experience because I have yet to recover a cast projectile from an animal yet. But my guess is that if a cast bullet is recovered it is likely to have hit bone. I can see bone wearing the front driving band but I haven't come to a conclusion about wear from flesh and fluids. I choose to get a little more real world slam hammer stomp'em and knock'em down experience.

[GLynn41]

I never catch a bullet Keith or other wise -- in firing the K into wet newsprint not much happens to the shoulders -- game I do not know as they do not stop in game-- I have caught one LBT 240gr LBT I was helping to recover a wounded doe -- I caught her in a slew - and the bullet went through 5-6" of water may be less or more anyway the bullet then went nearly completely through the deer and was found on the other side- if you like the keith shoot it if you like the LWNGC bam (by all means )use it like the arguement about which is better -.411 or 429 -- ok you really think the deer know or even care? I still shoot the keith becasue I read so much of him as I grew up and I killed my first hand gun deer with one - but really the LBT style seem to work a little better-- but only to me as again I do not think the deer know what you have shot -- if you kill them they do not -- if miss them they do not - so they do not really care only we do -- as long as you use a proven effective bullet--no round nose need apply-- shoot right --shoot well and you will eat well --have fun

[kooz]

He did report the results on live animals that included mule deer, elk, bear and cattle. Reread the article. I'm not arguing that you opinion is wrong or right. But the article clearly states his results of Keith bullets on animals in the field.

Just for clarification, I agree with Brian Pearce and his results are consistant with mine as far as how well the Keith bullets work on game. My comment was directed at those who didn't agree with my firt post, but offered no personal hunting experieces to back there stance on the subject (these would be the internet professionals) . Not trying to ruffle anyones barbs here, I am just trying to answere the authors original question, and leave out mathmatical equations, wet phone book and clay experiments and just stick to field experiences that will help him in his bullet choice.

[runfiverun]

my favorite response to these questions is always a flat nose and two holes.
no soft mushy "energy dump" boolits need apply.