Working on a HP load...'Barrel Lengths Matter'

[OS OK]

Forrest_r...you must have been replying while I was, thanks for the info on Titegroup, that I have and can try.

Did they not recommend the PP in the .357" because of heat that it would vaporize lead bare bases and lay it down in the barrels?

I'm going to have to get a new powder manual and re-read all the powder descriptions of those I stock again before I just keep on with a tainted memory or flat out missing these little details regarding extreme heat.

[Blackwater]

One small addition: Just reading the manuals I have, I think the powders I'd concentrate on would be Tightgroup, 231 and CFE Pistol. It seems to be a bit ironic that CFE Pistol has the "copper eraser" in it, but it really seems to shine in .38 Sp. and .45 ACP, at least according to the data in the Hodgdon''s Annual Manual for this year. Power Pistol is another, mentioned above, that seems to be giving good results at std. .38 pressures.

Get into +P and +P+ pressures, and the .38 can be a very good performer in the field, and I'm sure it'd do well for SD, too. IMO, the only "good" loads in .38 Sp. among jbullets is the 110 and maybe 125/135's, but really, only at +P pressures. At the normal pressure levels of .38's, lead really out-performs J's ANY day of the week. More velocity and eaier expansion at the velocities attainable in a 2" .38.

And FWIW, I've pretty well given up on the lighter cast .38's. They just don't seem to have the "impact" of a heavier bullet. Give me a flat pointed lead bullet ANY day in the .38 snubby! And if you can't get the expansion, go for good penetration, even on some 350 lb. monster who's drugged up. Think head shots on a K-5 silhouette target for any followup shots, and practice, practice, practice. It CAN be done.

A snubby is just a tool, like any other gun, and it's really HOW you use it moreso than what you stuff in it that's really the critical determinant in a real life event. Just settle on the fastest possible load you can find that gives good accuracy, and practice until head shots seem "natural."

In a real life situation, we almost always do what we've practiced doing. That upsets some's delicate sensibilities, but SD ain't about delicate sensibilities, or style, or anything BUT simple SURVIVAL. And being able to PLACE your shots where they'll do the most good is or can be the critical element. There really aren't any "magic loads" that make 'em all drop DRT.

All the "magic" is in the shooter's hands, and in the practice he's done. FWIW????

[OS OK]

I suppose that this will be the TiteGroup series...I used the table for a 170g. L-SWC with the range of 3.0g./808FPS ~ 3.4g./864FPS.

I started .2'ths low again hoping to see results, but...not to be. That would have been nice so I can throw the charges without worrying over going over max. load. Oh well...

Primers don't show excessive high pressure. I think I'll go down later and prepare another set at 3.3g.

I've been weight sorting these casts to a max. range of .9'ths...these were 166.0 ~ 166.9g. with the initiator tips. The one on the far right lost .1'th but the others held weight, no loss. This 5 BHN lead seems to mushroom nicely without showing the brittleness I've witnessed in WW Pb.

No, I have not run them over the chrony...don't intend to until I get 100% expansion.

I never heard back from 35remington about which position is the most sensitive powder position in the cases so...I cocked on all these rounds with the snubby pointing down and brought it up to level from there thus insuring that each shot had all the powder against the base of the cast. I'm sure to hear from him prolly later this morning, I hope!

Okay...there it is...stay tuned, more to come!

[Blackwater]

Creating a good snubby load, especially a non-+P one, that'll work, is really one of the most trying tasks I think we do as reloaders, but you're going about it in a very good way, and I anticipate that if you keep going, you'll have a LOT better idea what your snubby will do than most will ever have, and that's always a big plus. I'd also try some solid point bullets, and see what kind of penetration you may be giving up. In my experience, wet news print is fairly close to replicating flesh, but usually indicates more penetration than would be the case in flesh, but not by a terrible amount. FWIW?

[OS OK]

Thanks Dennis...I've read where they have bundled newspapers and bound them and then soaked them for a day before shooting them.
Once I get to 100% compliance with the mushrooming and retaining weight, I'll devise a wet newsprint or phone book method to check penetration.
I don't want to exceed 12" as these are meant to stay in the perp and not plow through and then through a wall and strike an innocent. That's prolly an unusual request on my part but it seems like a real problem that could occur. If it wasn't for that, I'd just load them to +P and forget all this tinkering.

[fredj338]

Fred, I have extensively documented tests here where I see that all the time. Be very happy to point you to it regarding the 38.

With rifles and loads like a partial case full of 4895, it may be 200 fps or more. Testing for it has nothing in common with unicorns.

You might get that result in a large case with a tiny volume of powder. I have never seen it in "normal" loadings, 38sp, 357mag, 44mag, 45colt. Even in the big 45colt with 5gr of RedDot, never got 100fps diff. Could it happen, maybe, in general, no.

[fredj338]

Thanks Dennis...I've read where they have bundled newspapers and bound them and then soaked them for a day before shooting them.
Once I get to 100% compliance with the mushrooming and retaining weight, I'll devise a wet newsprint or phone book method to check penetration.
I don't want to exceed 12" as these are meant to stay in the perp and not plow through and then through a wall and strike an innocent. That's prolly an unusual request on my part but it seems like a real problem that could occur. If it wasn't for that, I'd just load them to +P and forget all this tinkering.

Keep in mind 12" of penetration is a good MIMIMUM. The idea is to get to vitals from any reasonable angle on any reasonable size target. Slap a tape on your body from shoulder to center of your chest. It's barely 12" on the avg size man. A big guy will go 14-15". Any expanding bullet leaving the chest of a bad guy won't have much left to penetrate even drywall much less plywood. Over penetration never got anyone killed. Under penetration has cause many deaths in self defense shootings.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course, all this concern about the bullet remaining in the target's body and doesn't go off through some sheetrock walls is assuming one thing -- all your shots end up hitting the target. If you look at the percentage of hits with cops, you'll see that their hit percentage is not that great.

Two holes to bleed out from is better than just one.

[fredj338]

^^Agree, within reason^^. With lead HP, depending on alloy & design, even a small amount of vel loss can affect expansion dramatically. Here I look pretty good at 845fps, just ok 30fps slower & failure @ 60fps less. Consider shot to shot variation can be 30fps, higher vel is better. Ideally, I want the bullet to hit 70cal & penetrate about 15-16". In wetpack, that equates to about 12".

[dubber123]

In case I missed it, does the OP have a chorongraph? If not, I wouldn't be surprised to see velocities in the 700 fps. range from a snub, if the speeds noted are only what the manual indicates. My snub loads are a solid 850 fps.+, and were extremely consistent. I suspect actual velocities here are well below that the OP believes, unless they are actually chronographed.

[OS OK]

In case I missed it, does the OP have a chorongraph? If not, I wouldn't be surprised to see velocities in the 700 fps. range from a snub, if the speeds noted are only what the manual indicates. My snub loads are a solid 850 fps.+, and were extremely consistent. I suspect actual velocities here are well below that the OP believes, unless they are actually chronographed.

I don't believe that the chrony is going to read these numbers...I put them here for reference to anyone wondering about what the Lyman book said about min/max loads for this weight range/profile cast.

I've already chrony'd several pages back and left off with 4.0g. of Bullseye at about 743FPS IIRC'ly. I got tired of preparing an extra 5 rounds just to chrony when I wasn't getting 100% expansion all the time. I decided to just work on expansion by steadily increasing load grains and fooling with different suggested powders I had in stock...when I get to where I want on the mushrooms, then I'll see what it chrony's.

[OS OK]

Here's the results of 3.3g. of TiteGroup...with emphasis on powder positioning in the case...I didn't know what to expect here so I threw this set of test in just for observation...what do you think?
I didn't weigh these but you can see that 2 of the group on the left lost weight...were they more powerful, faster FPS?
The group on the right didn't seem to loose weight though the center one seems to have contacted the inside wall of the pipe.

This picture is just a summary of todays work up's...

It looks to me that there is a narrow margin between full openings without weight loss and openings with weight loss...

Does anyone have a call on this so far?

[OS OK]

Of course, all this concern about the bullet remaining in the target's body and doesn't go off through some sheetrock walls is assuming one thing -- all your shots end up hitting the target. If you look at the percentage of hits with cops, you'll see that their hit percentage is not that great.

Two holes to bleed out from is better than just one.

You know that we could start a whole nuther thread on what happens in a confrontation and shootout.

I've watched many Y-Tube surveillance videos where both the robber and the store manager are shooting/running for cover and shooting/firing over the stacks of stuff on the counter and ducking...it's endless. I also watched a man get out of his car and defend a motorcyclist who just got overtaken by a pistol wielding thug and as the thug mounted to escape, the defender calmly shot his butt dead in the street. Then walked over to him to make sure he did good and that the thug no longer had the pistol in hand.
Same with the cops...
I imagine though that there are Vet's out there that will stand up and coldy and boldly set those irons on you and blow your spit into the next county...
it's mindset, it's experience/calm/determination in an emergency situation and the difference is within each and every shooter that gets engaged...and prolly most of all, it just might be that one person is more 'willing' to take a human life than another.

I know this...you get between my wife and her kids or grandkids or just jump her from behind while she's putting her groceries in the car and your going to remember it forever...she's been there and done that so it's no speculation on my part, she rolled around and knocked a grown man out cold. Her comment to me was that she regretted not running him over as she left the store...now that she's older than when that all happened, I think she is even more determined, she's like a Momma Bear with a toothache! I know...I've crossed her too in my young and dumb years 40 years ago!

[35remington]

The "most sensitive position" is the extremes. All the way forward and all the way back. Model both to see just how position sensitive shown as variation between the two.

Titegroup has less position sensitivity than most as long as things are not pushed too far.

Fred, time to test those large case low pressure rounds in a more methodical way positioning the powder at extremes of front to back. The variation is there. You just never have tested specifically for it. Most have not. Never noticing it is not the same thing as it not being present if you have never specifically tried to make it happen.

[dubber123]

I don't believe that the chrony is going to read these numbers...I put them here for reference to anyone wondering about what the Lyman book said about min/max loads for this weight range/profile cast.

I've already chrony'd several pages back and left off with 4.0g. of Bullseye at about 743FPS IIRC'ly. I got tired of preparing an extra 5 rounds just to chrony when I wasn't getting 100% expansion all the time. I decided to just work on expansion by steadily increasing load grains and fooling with different suggested powders I had in stock...when I get to where I want on the mushrooms, then I'll see what it chrony's.

Ok, I missed where you chronoed, but the mid 700s is about what I thought. That is about 100 full Fps. slower than my loads, and that makes a huge difference. The loss of weight you are experiencing is something I never noted in my tests with 50/50. The worst would lose about 10 grains, a grain or so of which was HP cavity filler. The 50/50+tin seems to hold together better than your pure lead, which surprises me.

[OS OK]

I think your mix has grain structure with Sn and Sb giving it a tougher mechanical strength but also requiring that extra humph in speed to open them up...right?

Prolly tomorrow I'll duplicate the last two loads where I'm shooting with the powder to the front and at random to see what Speed it is doing over the chrony for what I've shown thus far.

[fredj338]

I don't believe that the chrony is going to read these numbers...I put them here for reference to anyone wondering about what the Lyman book said about min/max loads for this weight range/profile cast.

I've already chrony'd several pages back and left off with 4.0g. of Bullseye at about 743FPS IIRC'ly. I got tired of preparing an extra 5 rounds just to chrony when I wasn't getting 100% expansion all the time. I decided to just work on expansion by steadily increasing load grains and fooling with different suggested powders I had in stock...when I get to where I want on the mushrooms, then I'll see what it chrony's.

Any decent chrono will read down too arrow speeds, like sub 500fps.
IMO, you are still to fixated on this powder to the front stuff. If the point is to make a bullet to use in a SD situation, that means the load needs to work from any possible shooting position. Work on getting the vel up thru adding more powder. Use the chrono, you will need at lest 750fps to get some expansion with pure lead, even then, the HP will need to be wide. With lead/tin, 25-1, about 825fps w/ the right HP design.
This was quite a bit faster, but note the large/deep HP. It will expand down around 750fps with that alloy.

[35remington]

Don't just shoot it with powder to the front.....shoot it with powder to the back as well and tell us the variation between the positioning extremes. For illumination purposes try Titegroup versus, say, Unique or W231.

i must say my 638 seems to get higher velocity than you are getting, but then I mostly use 158 grain SWC's rather than anything heavier.

Since powder to the front gives lowest possible velocities and least expansion, knowing for sure what happens in a worst case (and quite likely scenario) is very much worth knowing. This is, in fact, getting the load to work in "any possible" shooting position.

Adding more powder helps, but you must know if the amount you added still works if the powder is forward in the case and velocity takes a hit. With many powders a lighter charge to the rear gives more velocity than a heavier charge with powder to the front. Find out what charge works no matter where the powder is.....then you are covered no matter what.

[Blackwater]

.35, did you try Unique? Red Dot is one of our bulkier powders, easy to ignite, and that helps reduce the position sensitivity somewhat, I think? Does that jive with your findings? I don't know of any powder that'll bulk up enough in non-+P loads to not have at least some position sensitivity issues. I know Hodgdon's says Titegroup is "position insensitive," but what I think they mean is compared to other powders.

Also, did you try various primers to see if any tended to reduce vel. spread due to powder position? WSP's have always seemed to be a little "hotter" and I often used them, but at that point, I just assumed that they'd do at least a little better with milder loads due to the slightly hotter/longer flash. I never did any real tests, but back then I didn't have a chrono anyway, so wouldn't have known how to really go about it without one of those. What have you found about primers?

The std. vel. .38 snubby load really CAN be a real challenge to get "right."

[OS OK]

I shot this target through the chrony at 10 yards freehanded, no rest, 5 rounds each load and are 3.3g. of TiteGroup. Their respective mushrooming is in the immediate pictures above I did this morning and afternoon. It is a stainless Taurus .357 Mag. snubbie w/.006'' cylinder to barrel gap.

The ones marked with a slash at 12'O-clock ran at 654FPS w/ 37 variation and Powder to the Front.
The ones marked with a slash at 5'O-clock ran at 678FPS w/ 45 variation and Powder to the Rear.
The ones marked with a slash at 7'O-clock ran at 647FPS w/ 4 variation and Random Powder.

The Random powder placement was had by shaking the snubby side to side while holding it parallel to the ground.