wasting tin

[DerekP Houston]

that got everybody to settle down, it isn't your alloys I am using, I just had a question, and I can hear you all screaming through the computer, STOP WASTING THE PRECIOUS TIN!PLEASE! lol I will mix some lead with the pucks or muffin ingots though, but it will be 2:1 tinned:lead or WW

meh it's your money and alloy do what you like . Best part of lead/boolits is someone will eventually mine that berm and recycle it. I don't know the exact mix of any of my range scrap. I cast a ton of my bulk pewter into 4oz chunks. Every 20lbs or so I toss in another piece of tin. Dunno if it is needed, it adds ~1% to my mix. I'm a creature of habit so since it has worked I've seen no need to change it. I purchases some "hardball" lead when I started and used it for all my 9mm casting.

I won't lie if I said it wasn't very entertaining posting up tiny groups at the range.

[wadcutter]

The past is the past and metal prices were a lot lower.

That's not really true. In the 70's and early 80's tin prices where kept artificially high by the ITC, an OPEC-like organization which agreed on tin production and storage volumes to keep the prices high. Adjusted for inflation, tin prices are not that high. They have certainly gone up in the short term, but are back on the way down.

In any case, the cost of wasting a few percent of tin is negligible. For example, let's say you shoot 150 grain boolits. With 2% tin, you use .34 cents per round of tin. With 5% you use .86 cents of tin per round. Assuming you shoot about 2000 of these a year, the total "wasted" tin cost is $10 per year.

I certainly wouldn't bother melting down the ingots if it were me.

[fryboy]

Umm amigo ? About that math ...round,pound or common core ?
As for the OP ...you did ask...that most state you're wasting tin isn't really yelling per say ( that'd be - YOU'RE WASTING TIN !!!!!! ) please don't take it personally,some of us have lots of it and some of us have to buy it at the going rate of retail @ $20 +shipping a pound ( ouch ) the main things are your casting/shooting is successful AND you're happy with the result

[montana_charlie]

ok so I made a good size batch of 50-50-5% tin and people on here say I am wasting the tin, I have it in there for plasticity and to keep it from fracturing. I really don't want to melt that first batch down, about 75-80lbs of muffin ingots!so tell me why I should lower the amount on my next batches when peope used to use up to 16-1? thanks

We who shoot black powder cartridge rifles (BPCR) are fond of soft, lead/tin alloys for our bullets.
As a group, there is little love for antimonal mixes ... but that is beginning to change.

A well-known BPCR shooter, experimenter, and bullet designer died about a year ago.
He was the kind of experimenter who absolutely did everything imaginable to maintain control of a process, and eliminate factors that could skew results.

This relates to you because he did some experiments on bullet alloys. Most of those were the lead/tin types that most of us use, but he also did an extended hardness stability program that produced one undeniable result, which is ...

An alloy that contains unequal amounts of tin and antimony will vary in hardness, getting harder AND softer, over time.
When the amount of antimony and tin are equal, the alloy hardens initially, up to a point where it stays for over a year (the length of the experiment).

He (Dan Theodore) created this graph to provide a visual image of what the alloys do.

[JSnover]

My understanding is that any hardness/toughness from tin is maxed out at about 40%, especially in a binary (only two elements) alloy. You have a tertiary (three elements) alloy and that 5% antimony is doing a lot more for you than the tin is.
That said, you are using more tin than you need and talking to guys who have made it their mission in life to do this as cheaply as they can (myself included). Keep casting it this way if you want but we're telling you the truth when we say you can get the same results with a lot less tin in your boolits.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, thankyou, im not takeingg any of this offensively(spl?) so don't worry about that, after reading all of this I have decided to reduce tin use in the future, but not gonna wast my time on re melting the 80lbs I made. I like the old way of doing things, and if I could afford enough pure lead, I would be shooting 1-20 like they use to, maybe 1-30. but I had to supplement some WW's in there because they are free.so if the antimony in those makes that much difference, which it does,after hearing everyones experience, then I will start mixing 1.5-2% and use the saved money for more lead. thank you guys for explaining it thoroughly, alloying and the end results can sometimes get confuseing for me, like age hardening AND softening?! heard of one or the other but not both.ok well thanks again, and you all have a good day. Travis in Tulsa

[runfiverun]

I'm not trying to get you wrapped up about excess tin in your alloy.
I was pointing you towards the pit-falls of the unbalanced 2 part alloy.
if you understand how the alloy's work, the hardening and softening makes perfect sense.
it's like trying to wrap your head around antimonial migration.
or how tin breaks through dendrite walls to allow better fill-out of a mold.
[the alloy is starting to set up and still flowing at the same time]

[RogerDat]

I guess some of it has to do with how plentiful the specific item is as to how much value we place on it. Some folks have a slim supply of WW's so they cut them with plain for pistol or cut them and water drop. Others have lots of WW's and not much plain. Or hit a big batch of Linotype so cast a lot of lino or hardball alloy. Or these same people are swapping for some soft because printers lead they have, plain soft lead they can't find for love nor money.

I'm sort of a waste not want not type guy. Doesn't matter how much of some component I have I won't use more than I need for a desired result, I also sad to say will seldom walk away from a good deal on more. I can't get the bullet to cast with noticeably more shine or sharper edges by adding more tin, so I don't. All I do with more tin is make bullets lighter in weight. But I'm not the OP, my stash is not his stash, and what is more important his stash is not mine. Unless he wants to send his stash to me and I promise I will give it a good "forever" home.... in a berm.

I let my family know what my stuff is and what it is worth, heck how much weight, and where located is all kept in a spread sheet. I print it off every time I make any big change like doing a big batch of one alloy or another. Or melting some more scrap or pewter to add to it. I have some of those Bell System Seam solder bars, and some Dutch Boy 777 stuff. Probably won't use it unless I run low on other stuff. It is neat, on a shelf or in a bullet either way.

There is probably a point (or several) where OP can get some nice bullets, suitable to his use, with less tin, or maybe a Pb/Sn alloy without Sb. He indicated he may try cutting the existing stuff a bit with plain. Nothing wrong with a nice 3/3/94 alloy for a hunting bullet. Probably make a nice HP too. Taking that down to less alloy, more Pb might yield even better performance in some guns using a heavy bullet at lower velocities. And we all know it is fun to experiment. Isn't that what old milk jugs are for? To fill with water and shoot for testing the overall wallop?

[6622729]

I have some of those Bell System Seam solder bars, and some Dutch Boy 777 stuff.

Any idea what the difference is between the Bell System "E" Wiping Solder and the Bell System "C" Seam Solder?

[runfiverun]

2 numbers err letters.

probably 10% some were 40% tin and some 50% tin.

[6622729]

I'm not trying to get you wrapped up about excess tin in your alloy.
I was pointing you towards the pit-falls of the unbalanced 2 part alloy.
if you understand how the alloy's work, the hardening and softening makes perfect sense.
it's like trying to wrap your head around antimonial migration.
or how tin breaks through dendrite walls to allow better fill-out of a mold.
[the alloy is starting to set up and still flowing at the same time]

Yes, I find myself working towards a balanced alloy of about 5% Tin, 5% Antimony and 90% lead. By experience I find myself working towards Lyman #2 alloy! At least, that is my intent. It can be tough with all of the wild guesses one has to take using scrap materials from multiple sources. I'm shooting good and not leading either gun so I must be close. I'm casting 9mm handgun (Glock 19) and 30 caliber AR15 in 300AAC.

[6622729]

2 numbers err letters.

probably 10% some were 40% tin and some 50% tin.

Well, I do know the wiping solder "E" alloy is 37.5-40% tin. I'm not familiar with the "C" seam alloy hence the question.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill go this way. back when I had lots of linotype and tin I tended to use it more. In my opinion (for what its worth) an alloy with 5 percent tin might just cast a bit better then one with 2percnt. Now the difference is small but bottom line if you want to be honest plain old ww casts just fine with no tin added. So does pure. its more of a matter of getting your temp right to get good fillout then the amount of tin added. Anymore my tin stash doesn't get depleted very fast. I use it mostly to make something like #2. I just personaly think its a waste of money in any percentage to add to something like ww. To be totally honest if I had some linotype to make #2 out of I could live the rest of my casting life without a single ounce of tin.

[bangerjim]

Fresh lino alloy is 12% Sb & 4% Sn, so anytime one is using lino, they are adding Sn. That is one of the reasons lino metal is so popular with casters.....you kill 2 birds with one stone. I value the 12% Sb for adding to the hardness more than the small amount of Sn in there.


I get far better quality fills with ~2% Sn in COWW (normally only ~0.5% Sn) mixes. That 2%, added to pre-heated to full casting temp molds and correct temp alloys, yields darned good boolits every time for me.

Have fun casting!

[scottfire1957]

ok so I made a good size batch of 50-50-5% tin and people on here say I am wasting the tin, I have it in there for plasticity and to keep it from fracturing. I really don't want to melt that first batch down, about 75-80lbs of muffin ingots!so tell me why I should lower the amount on my next batches when peope used to use up to 16-1? thanks

Ummmm....50/50 5% is 105 percent. If I read you correctly. Otherwise, we have no idea of your mixture. Tell us the weights you are using.

[6622729]

Ummmm....50/50 5% is 105 percent. If I read you correctly. Otherwise, we have no idea of your mixture. Tell us the weights you are using.

No, I think he meant he made a batch of 50% COWW with 50% soft lead and adjusted the mix to end up with 5% tin in it.

[6622729]

I made just under 25lbs of my best guess 5% tin, 5% antimony and 90% lead from my materials on hand. The ingots ring like a bell and are harder than COWW. I think I got close to true Lyman #2 which is what I was shooting for. Not bad for mixing forklift battery inter-cell connectors with monotype and wiping solder. Lol.

I don't consider it wasting tin. I consider it making the best alloy I can.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

thanks 6622729, that is what I meant, and yesterday I mixed a batch of half 50-50, half pure, with 3% tin. haven't tested it yet. also what do you think the sb content of 50-50, or 50%WW-50Pure is?

[Cowboy_Dan]

thanks 6622729, that is what I meant, and yesterday I mixed a batch of half 50-50, half pure, with 3% tin. haven't tested it yet. also what do you think the sb content of 50-50, or 50%WW-50Pure is?

50/50 COWW/pure should have about 1.25-1.5% Sb, if memory serves and the alloy calculator has it right.

[HangFireW8]

Due to the move of local electronics manufacturers to ROHS, I am awash in tin. Thinking of it as expensive is hard, as I can buy it, or sell it, for the same price as lead at my local scrapyard.