Best dual purpose firearm?

[Thumbcocker]

Most of us here probably have a few firearms of our favorite type. Some of us like to have a firearm for different scenarios like a 7.5" .44 for hunting and a 4 5/8" .44 for woods bumming etc. However not all folks starting out in our hobby have the luxury of guns for specific niches.

After decades of reading gun articles and internet inquires it seems that many new shooters have two primary concerns about their choice for a firearm. Gun fighting and bear defense. In an effort to help those folks get the most for their dollar I think that, as a service to our community, we should provide guidance on the best compromise for theses folks.

Having never been in a gun fight or defended myself from a bear attack, I lack the necessary experience to provide advice in these areas. I have noted however, that animals seem to be getting smarter these days and gun sales are at record levels. There is also the animal rights movement to consider. I think it is only a matter of time until the unthinkable become reality.


With that in mind I would like the input from the membership on the best firearm to use in gun fight with a bear. My first thought was an Asperly Aimless but the rarity of these exquisite arms puts them out of reach for the average new shooter. Of course any of you who have ever been in a gunfight with a bear could provide invaluable experience in this area and probably save lives.

[garym1a2]

Marlin in 35 rem, 45-70 or .444.
12AWG with slugs. 3 inch.

[Outpost75]

Two high school classmates of mine have lived their entire adult lives in Alaska, working in bear country with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers or with the Indian Health Service of USPHS. Their agencies DO NOT take handguns for bear defense, but recommend a 12-ga. pump shotgun. If you carefully research the records of bear-human confrontations for as long as they have been keeping records, the most effective weapon in cases where the outcome was favorable to the human survivor has been the pump action 12-ga. Most of the time loaded with 00 buckshot.

NO HANDGUN IS ADEQUATE FOR A HOT BREATH CONFRONTATION WITH A LARGE BEAR!

My buddy Dave put it this way, "A short-barreled .44 Magnum firing full up loads has about the same energy and penetration as Grandma's .44-40 Winchester carbine she keeps by the kitchen door. But she doesn't use it for bears, she has a 12-ga. pump too."

Here is what the Alaska DNR recommends:

http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm
Protection

Most people who hike in Alaska's wilderness don't carry a weapon. They know that the best defense is common sense. Traveling and camping carefully are all that they need. If you feel the need for additional protection, consider carrying "pepper spray", a bear deterrent made from the juice of red-hot peppers. This incapacitating spray teaches bears a lesson without permanently maiming them. It's available at local sporting goods stores and at visitor centers. Be familiar with the characteristics of the brand you choose and its warnings.

You are allowed to carry a gun for protection in state parks. Remember, though, that more people are hurt by the guns they carry than are hurt by bears. Select a gun that will stop a bear (12-gauge shotgun or .300 mag rifle) and practice firing it at a rifle range. Any bear shot in self defense must be salvaged and turned over to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.


Click here for the Alaska Department of Fish and Games'
"The Essentials for Traveling in Bear Country".

[lefty o]

depends on what kind of bear. what one needs for the avg black bear is a world of difference from what one would want to have handy in case he ticked off momma brown bear!

[ole 5 hole group]

Well, I think the vast majority of current & future firearm owners who think about bear defense, do so in their dreams. Very few ever see a "wild" bear let alone have one charge them. I've been around black bears for at least half of my life - when I do happen to see one, they move off very quickly - when I do "sneak" up on one, I scare hell out of them and it usually gets my attention too. I've only seen one grey wolf in the wild, a couple mountain lions and they wanted nothing to do with me and I was just grateful to have seen them, as I see a lot of tracks but no hair. The greatest danger out there are those mosquitoes who can stand flat footed and mate a turkey, the no-seeums, black flies and everything else out there that wants a quart of your blood.


When camping in bear country, where you have a few "camp bears" around - you either put up a well grounded bear fence or you take a chance on coming back to a tore up camp site, which will ruin your entire trip - won't happen often, but just once is too many for the price of a bear fence.


The one firearm of choice when packing in bear country and when in a target rich environment of 2-legged predators - now that would be a 1911 in 45 ACP loaded with either heavy cast or 230 grain bonded rounds. Of course there are a couple zillion other firearms that will suit others better but the 1911 can always be counted on to do its part if you can keep it together and do your part.

[starmac]

I know a lot of folks that carry a 12 gauge for bear protection, but exactly zero that uses buckshot. I do know of some that staggers between buck and slugs.
As far as most people hiking in Alaska not being armed, maybe guided tourists, whose guide is armed.
The reason folks carry a handgun (44 minimum) Is because people have a tendancy to not ALWAYS have a shotgun or rifle in their hands especially around camp. I do not do much hiking myself, but do tool around on atvs and am always armed, and most folks that I see are also.
All that said most folks could get by with a water gun 99.99% percent of the time, it is that instant that a watergun won't do that we read about several times a year.

[lbaize3]

Let's see... A gun for a gun fight with a bear? I reckon a 454 or a 480 would do the trick, unless that rascal was wearing body armour. Then I would have to opt for a double barrel recoiless rifle.

[Artful]

12 ga - only way in my mind for bear
- I use a pump myself - Remington 870

but I know people under stress or new to pumps that short stroke them (not good)
so I might suggest an auto loader - yes it's heavier than a pistol but as the saying goes
a pistol is there to get you to your long gun.

Benelli M4 Super 90 (US Military version M1014)



or AK system


maybe one of the newer bullpup's but I'd have to try one first



AA-12 or similar

[badbob454]

10 mm glock with 6''barrel 200 gr boolit at a max load @1200fps and 15 followup shots

[2wheelDuke]

10 mm glock with 6''barrel 200 gr boolit at a max load @1200fps and 15 followup shots

Based on the thread title, I was thinking it would be bear defense and general defense or something. A 10mm is high on my list for a multi-purpose gun. It might be a bit light for grizzlies, but it's got to be one of the better all around calibers. You can run 200gr wfn for penetration on dangerous game, then easily switch to lighter JHPs for social work.

[Thumbcocker]

After my original post I did some further research. My quest took me to some dark and shadowy places in cyberspace. Eventually I was able to make contact with a certified expert in this area. His credentials were impressive. He has had a subscription to Soldier of Fortune since age 12. He has played every Halo game extant, read every Tom Clancy novel, won medals in every installment of Call of Duty, he will be getting a polymer framed firearm when he is old enough. He has established and AO (area of operations) that includes the local mall. He is a frequent paint baller (except when his asthma is acting up or his Mom need help around the house). He has gone by screen names such as Exseal 1999, Spatznatz 1999, Samarininja 1999, tacticalsniper1999, and a host of others. For purposes of operational security he asks that I refer to him as Melvin.


Melvin acknowledges that he has never had a firefight with a bear but he is a decorated veteran of countless virtual battles large and small. Melvin's advice is be aware of your surroundings at all times; it is just a matter of time until milspec weapons fall into the wrong hands or paws as the case may be. Melvin recommends something on the AR or Ak platform as your primary weapon since belt fed crew served is not a practical option. He also suggests a primary sidearm with quick change magazines being a mandatory feature. Melvin advises not to neglect edged weapons. Sometimes it comes down to cold steel to carry the day.


Melvin did further research and added a few more pointers. While courageous, most bears lack tactical sophistication. Exploit this weakness. He recommends always having a partner in the woods. The idea being to fix the bear in place with a volume of fire and then execute plan bravo alpha Zulu on the bear. Melvin sagely suggested that any pause in fire from the bear's position should be capitalized on. "Lack of thumbs make mag changes really tough for bears." Melvin added. I asked Melvin if it would be fair to assault the position of an essentially unarmed bear. His reply "There ain't no rules in a gunfight with a bear."

I asked Melvin for pointers about training for these dark times. Melvin got serious swigged his Mountain Dew and provided the following advice. Don't waste time at the range, that is expensive and time consuming, plus you need a gun. Melvin emphasized the importance of virtual combat as often as possible and proudly showed me his virtual sharpshooters badge and virtual small unit tactics certificate. Melvin also added that marksmanship is an outdated concept. Volume of fire is what will get you through.


As I stated I don't feel that I have the qualifications to comment on gunfighting bears. Thank goodness I found Melvin.

[BNE]

Thank you for finding Melvin. He just saved me against all virtual bears.

[lbaize3]

Thumbcocker, could you loan me Melvin's email address. I want to get his take on a probable anaconda uprising down south... Heard the rascals can hold a firearm in their mouth and manipulate the trigger with their tongues. Pretty good shots, too, according to the surviviors...

[montana_charlie]

I would like the input from the membership on the best firearm to use in gun fight with a bear.

The guys I've met who seem most knowledgeable about bears all seem to say that rifles rule.
There seems to be considerable consensus that no handgun is adequate to save your hide, but it gives you the courage to go hiking and fishing.

One old guy did have a tip for those who are determined to hang their hopes on a handgun, and that was to carry one with no front sight.
He said that smooth muzzle wouldn't hurt so bad when the bear shoves it where the sun don't shine.

[pworley1]

If I could only have one gun, I would have to go with the 12 ga pump.

[DougGuy]

I reckon my heavily loaded .45 Colt Ruger birdshead will have to do me if I didn't have that I would find me a LAR Grizzly in .45 Win Mag.

[jonp]

Thumbcocker, could you loan me Melvin's email address. I want to get his take on a probable anaconda uprising down south... Heard the rascals can hold a firearm in their mouth and manipulate the trigger with their tongues. Pretty good shots, too, according to the surviviors...

Good to see Gecko45 has resurfaced. http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[Multigunner]

Whatever firearm you decide on I suggest you look up photos of bear skulls and read up on the few vulnerable spots where a bullet will do the most good.
The Black Bear for example has a very narrow almond shaped brain case set very low in the head. A straight front to back bullet through the eye socket is unlikely to impact the brain of a Black bear. Best way to reach the brain is through the huge nasal cavity or the open mouth.
While large Black bear aren't so common these days an occasional 500-600 pounder will show up now and then. A bear that big can soak up a lot of fire power if its not well placed.

A friend just received a .50 Desert eagle he ordered awhile back. He asked if I'd go shooting with him to try it out. Sounds like as much gun as I'd want to use with one hand.

[jonp]

I've always been under the impression that the best gun to have in a confrontation is the one that your willing to carry everyday. Most people will not tote around a 12g in any configuration all the time before setting it down against a tree, leaving it in the truck because he is "only going over there a bit" or something. A 12g is probably the best weapon to have outside of a LAW but a handgun would be a more reasonable option.

Realizing that I have no experience in a bear confrontation take the following for what it is worth. When you are dealing with something intent on eating you then there is no such thing as "too much gun". Another way to put it is that bigger is always better. A Ruger 454 Alaskan is not too much gun in my opinion. You can always practice with 45 Colt. If that is too much then a 45 Colt up loaded would be an option. I'd stay away from a SW 500 as the recoil is quite a bit for some to handle and the guns are large.

[doc1876]

many years ago when I first started shooting I had a Gunsmith that claimed you only needed one rifle the 600 Nitro Express. if you wanted to hunt squirrels you shot the base of the tree all of the squirrels fell out anything else shoot them anywhere never any fear of reprisal. I miss my conversations with him.