K31 or 1889?

[Mel-4857]

I have a 96/11 and a k-31. The 96/11 has the better throat for cast ; on a good day have some nice groups in the 1-1 1/2 " range at a 100 yds with a scope. The k-31 is harder to load for because of the tight bore and SHORT throat but shot it yesterday and the Lyman 311644 shows promise. The open sights are a challenge with these 60 yr. old eyes. Both are great guns; a guy should have both. Mel

[pumpguy]

I just took the gun apart to clean it. Except for the forward sling swivel and the rear sight, the whole gun matching. This thing is really well built. Except for a dinged up stock, it is in great shape and I think I might try to steam out the dings. It only has a few deep gouges that I am resigned to, but most of the dings should come right out. I posted earlier that the stock did not match. Once I got it off, both pieces do match. On the top of the butt section is a different number and the word BERN. Is this the arsenal it was turned back to after it came out of service?

[bandit7.5]

Wish I could luck on to a 98/11 at the price of a K31.
I did luck on to a 1911 at the price of a Russian m44, timing is everything.

[gcp]

pumpguy, I have about seven K31s and one 96/11 (made in 1899). Only Swiss rifle I don't yet own is the 1911 (the rifle that preceded the K31) but I'll find eventually one that deserves to keep my other Swiss company. I've refinished the stocks of all of mine so they now are in "as new" condition. Can't stand dings on a stock, and the smell of old cosmo/oil. I hear people say "don't touch them" but I say have at it, all long as you know what you're doing. To each his own I guess. My sporter K31 is my deer rifle, drops 'em dead every single time.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/07...wiss%20Rifles/

In short, all these Swiss variants are excellent rifles. The 96/11 is a long rifle and shoots very accurately but it'll shoot way and I mean way high for you at 100 yards. You will need to order a tall front sight for it and file it down. If you need more info on where to get one let me know.

Because factory ammo is hard to come by, and expensive, I reload for both my Swiss and Sweedes. Best rifles out there, make my Winchester 94 look like a toy gun but they are heavy to haul around. Send me a PM if I can help you in any way.

[pumpguy]

gcp that is a nice collection of Swiss rifles. I bought one little box of the gp11? ammo yesterday. It was 7.50 plus tax for 10. I just want to shoot it to get a feel for the gun. I have some PRVI ammo ordered so I can reload it. I am really anxious to shoot this thing. I may start at the 200 yard line.

[Ricochet]

Prvi Partizan factory ammo isn't too expensive, and is of great quality. Shoots to the same velocity and with as good accuracy as GP-11 in my K-31. It can be ordered from several places online, like SOG. That's the best way to get reloadable cases, IMO. I couldn't buy components and load new cases for what the ammo cost last time I ordered some.

[PatMarlin]

Buying ammo goes against my funny bone...

Gives me indijestion.

[Bob S]

The 1911 series long rifles always grouped better than the K31 in Swiss trials, with the Swiss service ammo. The K31 came close, but never acheived the grouping potential of the Lg 1911 or 96/11. The K31 is shorter, lighter, and much less expansive to manufacture and difference in accuracy was considered acceptable. You hear so much talk about the K31 because the K31's have been easier to find in recent years (not so 20 years ago!), very inexpensive (on a relative basis), and there are so many aftermarket widgets for them. And they do shoot very, very well. A K31 may take some tinkering to get it to shoot to it's potential, the bedding system is not as stable or reliable as the 1911's. There's not much you can do with the long rifles, and unless you get one that has been abused or has a badly warped stock, there is no need to do any tinkering with the long rifles; they will shoot great as received, esp. if "cast" is the name of the game.

My first long rifle was a 96/11 that was in a local shop, tagged as a K31, and priced accordingly. I fell over myself getting my wallet out of my pocket. Here is my favorite target fired with that rifle:



The target was fired at 100 yards, prone position, using a US GI web sling, with the service sight set at 500 meters, with a load of Ideal 311291U sized .308; 16 grains of 2400. There are ten shots in there. It was fired several years ago, before retinopathy, cataracts, and kidney issues. I expect my Palma rifle and my CISM rifle to group like this, but I was flabergasted with the performance of an unmodifed service rifle.

I have not been able to make one ragged hole with ten shots @100 again, but the rifle will easily group 10 shots into 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 MOA from the prone position, cast or jacketed, and will maintain that to 300 yards, which is as far as I have used it. I got a Furter sight (fully adjustable with clicks) that replaces the service sight, and I was going to take it to Quantico and try it at 600 yards before my body started falling apart. I recently got the sight bases to install an Anschutz rear sight, and looking forward to tryind that out. This pic is not a long rifle, it is a .22 made from a Lg1889, but the rear sight mounting for the Anschutz is the same, so you get the idea:





So don't feel slighted because you didn't get a K31. You got "Gold Standard"!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[brimic]

Where did you get that sight and are they still made? I've been trying to find a clamp on sight or mount for a 1911 rifle and that's the first I've seen.

I'd take a 1911 or 96/11 over a k-31 any day, moreso if the price were the same

I have a 1/2 dozen K-31s and a 1911 rifle- the 1911 rifle is much better made (which is saying alot!) and it just feels more balanced and better in my hands.

[gcp]

Bob S, I'd like to put a set of diopters on my 96/11 in light of old age catching up with me. Where did you buy yours from?

Thanks,
gcp

[Bob S]

The sight that is on the .22 is a regular Anschutz sight. It is mounted on a Weaver one-piece mount that is made for the Ruger 10-22, with the dovetail narrowed to accept the Anschutz sight. The sight does "clamp on" to the mount, but the receiver has to be drilled and tapped for the mount. The .22 came drilled and tapped for the Wyss rail for the Anschutz sight, but sadly the rail was missing. For what I paid for the .22, I can't complain; it was far below the prevailing market at the time I bought it. It was easy to improvise the Weaver mount to make The Anschutz sight work. I have since found a source (in the Netherlands) for the Wyss rail and sights, but they are not cheap and the deteriorating dollar is not helping.

AFAIK, there is no "clamp-on" receiver sight or scope mount for the 1911-type receivers. The guy in Montana tried to make one, but it didn't work and was never released. Rumor has that he's trying again, but I wouldn't hold my breath: it's not an easy engineering problem and like me, he's not getting any younger. It would be far easier to engineer a clamp-on mount for the Gew 1889 because of the placement of the lightening cuts and lubrication hole, but I can't imagine there would be any demand for such a thing on the 1889.

For a "match" type rear sight without drilling and tapping anything, you are limited to things which replace the original rear sight. The one usually seen is the Furter, which is click adjustable for both windage and elevation.





These turn up on the auction sites now and then, but expect to pay about $200 for one. This one came on the 1911 in the picture when I bought the rifle. The Furter sights were made for the K31, K11, and the Gew 1911 or 96/11. The three types are not interchangeable.

I modified a "Darryl's Scout Mount" that was made for the K31 so that it would fit a 1911 base; it was not difficult to do. That was several years ago when I was experimenting with "scout" mounts. I determined that precision shooting (to my standards, at least) could not be done with mounts and scopes available, so I didn't pusue it further. If you're happy with knocking over beer cans at 50 yards, that may a way to get glass on a 1911 without modifying the rifle.

Resp'y,
Bob S,

[Bob S]

George:

You posted while I was typing the above. You know who the guy in the Netherlands is ... he is a Wyss dealer as well as "everything Swiss", so you could get the Wyss rail and front sight base from him, and have a perfectly authentic Swiss set-up for the Anschutz front and rear sights.

Or, you could procure a Parker-Hale 5A rear sight with a base for the South African Musgrave rifle (these turn up on Auction sites far more frequently that the Furters. Look for a guy called "Powderkeg" on EPay). Here is my first 1911 with a Parker Hale rear sight mounted:



For a front sight, I used a standard clamp-on front base from Champion's Choice. These are made for barrels .750 and .812" in diameter (and I think they are made .725" or so for the AR-derivative Space Guns now, too). To make it fit the skinny Swiss barrel, I made split bushings from pieces of 1/2" copper water pipe. Not high-tech, but very effective.



BTW, if you get the Wyss rail/front sight base set from Frank, be aware that the Wyss front sight base comes with an itegral dovetail on it that will only fit the new Anschutz "Duo" pattern tunnel sights. So you would have to modify the front sight base to accept a Redfield, P-H, Thompkins, or "old" style Anschutz sight, or just do what I did if you don't happen to have a Duo in your shooting box. You could also do what I did on the .22: drill and tap the receiver to accept the Weaver 10-22 mount. Narrow the dovetail to accept the Anschutz rear sight. The "bonus" with that idea is that the Weaver mount is also set up for Weaver scope bases ... so you get the possibility of a low over-bore scope mounting as well. Single shot only; it won't eject the cases with a scope mounted like that.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[gcp]

Bob S, I didn't make the name connection, good to see you here too buddy!!

Thanks for the Swiss info, and even though my Swiss dedication has taken a step back due to all this cowboy stuff I've been fooling with I'll give ol' Frank a call over the weekend to see what he's got in his bag of tricks as of late. Hate to drill/tap my 96/11 but I may just have to. Hellova target up above btw, keep shooting straight...

[pumpguy]

Well, I took the 96/11 out today. I set the sights on the lowest part of the ramp and went at it. I got about a 2" 10 shot group. This was with some of the Swiss surplus ammo. Not bad for a gun I have never shot. My dies are supposed to be here on Tuesday and I will work up some loads. Any suggestions. Please post here or PM me if you have any pet loads for this gun. I could use the help. I am going to use some .284 brass to start with. My PRVI loads got backordered so I will have to wait a while to shoot that stuff for brass.

[gcp]

pumpguy, I'd suggest you become a member of the swiss rifles forums. A wealth of knowledge there that I couldn't begin to relate to you in a post or two. You got a lot of reading to do.....and you will be tested by Bob S or me so get to it

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/

http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...u.com/forums/5

http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo....com/forums/10

If you use WC powder let me know and I'll give you some of my favorites......

Here's some more Swiss rifle links....and did I mention you will be tested?

http://www.swissrifles.com/links.htm

[swiss 96/11]

Lucky Guy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!