Sticker Shock!

[Lefty Red]

Was doing some culling and trading the past couple of weeks. First time I hit so many guns shops in so few days. Looking for a soft shooting slug gun. Looking for something...........

I seen older Topper 048 H&R's (the real H&R's with the case coloring on the frame and the longer barrel and full length stocks. adult size long guns) going for $175-$225! And damn if I wasn't thinking hard about a nice .410 with a 28" Mod barrel and nice wood.

Was offered $275 for my Topper Deluxe! Didn't part with it. Told them to call me when they had a 28 gauge to go with the 16 gauge 058 I picked up. I use to have a H&R and Stevens in 10,12,20,28, and 410. Then again I use to be married as well.

Ultra Slugs in 12 gauge is all I could find. $350 for the palet wood and $450 for a nice stock. Was told a 20 gauge wold fetch $500! They use to go for $250. I saw 12 gauges for $175 just three years ago.

Still looking for a Tracker and Tracker 2 in 20 gauge. Was told they made them in 16 as well. I think that is true for the smooth bore but doubt they made a 16 gauge with a rifled barrel. But that would be cool! I picked up three boxes of 16 gauge slugs I found, just in case. And made sure they are no where near my 12 slugs!

I thought only the handguns were high!

Jerry

[Artful]

Only stuff coming down is AR's and AK's - for now

[Lefty Red]

I think that is because the black rifle market was saturated with the scare a couple of years ago. And now everyone that bough one now found out that its about worthless for any except SD, and then only with proper training. Allot of people are dumping them.
Jerry

[3leggedturtle]

I picked up youth version 28 gauge with the pallet wood stocks. Its a hoot, Put fullsize stock onit cuz it would kick the heck out of me. Figured that was the reason it was shot about 3 times. I only paid $115 for it. The nice part is 28 is more common and easier to find than 410.

[ohland]

And now everyone that bought one now found out that its about worthless for any except SD, and then only with proper training.Jerry

Methinks you jest, my good sir. Coyotes. I'm sure other folks will chime in. Besides, a new upper can provide other abilities. Hogs, for one...

[Lefty Red]

Methinks you jest, my good sir. Coyotes. I'm sure other folks will chime in. Besides, a new upper can provide other abilities. Hogs, for one...

I don't jest! One day you will learn of good weapons like bolt actions. But if you are willing to make throw money away and make a purse out of a sow's ear, good ahead and be happy.

Just because a drunk man is happier than a sober one does not mean he a thoughtful thinker.

Jerry

[BruceB]

Gotta admit that I'm with Lefty Red , except that I find my AR is more-useful than he believes, and easier to use.

When a new upper costs as much as a decent bolt-action COMPLETE rifle..... I'm buying rifles, not PARTS of rifles.

A closet full of various uppers or extra barrels simply holds no attraction for me..... I want RIFLES.

[Hamish]

If I had known I would have sold you my 980 Ultra,,,,,,four inch groups at 150 yards,,,,,you might want to think about investing in the 20,,,,,

[Lefty Red]

I found two USH in 20 gauge at Dunn's and its going to hurt but buying both today! And at a decent price, but Dunn's seem to be able to do that. But Hamish, I thank you!

Also, going to go today and look at a new CVA Scout 20 gauge slug gun! Found I guy near IN that bought several of them when he heard they quit making them. Don't know if anyone is familiar with the Scout, but its a nice single shot built off of their BP break open frame. Just beefed up to handle the pressures of smokeless. I shot a couple in 44 Mag and 45/70. Found the trigger and handling way better than a H&R, and that says something. I might complain and put down H&R's personal and their finish, but even Remington couldn't screw up that simple design.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

Gotta admit that I'm with Lefty Red , except that I find my AR is more-useful than he believes, and easier to use.

When a new upper costs as much as a decent bolt-action COMPLETE rifle..... I'm buying rifles, not PARTS of rifles.

A closet full of various uppers or extra barrels simply holds no attraction for me..... I want RIFLES.

So true. I went to North Dakota with some co workers in 2008 for a prairie dog shoot. I had $900 in a Savage 22/250 and a Big Ol Nikon scope (they don't make that model any more BTW. ) Along with a bench bi pod and stuff. We meet folks with $2500 in they ARs they couldn't hand with use once we got out there. Some would get lucky but it wasn't often. And I remember one guy saying that he was gong to save up for a better upper for next year.....WOW! What kind of rifle could he have gotten for $2500!

The AR is a very easy to use weapon. That is what it was designed for . Lemay wanted something for the US based USAF dog hadlers to be able to use that was more effective than a sidearm. Something that was:
1) Light recoil
2) Light weight
3) High Velocity
4) Able to reach out on the flat ground that surrounded the missle silos
5) Easy to use
6) Held allot of ammo
7) Easy to reload
8) Be able to be used one handed
So the Armalite Rifle was tested and accepted for the USAF and then others jumped on board. We have all seen our co service members that have never shot a weapon before be able to use the AR in basic. It is a very user friendly. And it is very good at what it does, put a large amount of bullets in the general direction of the enemy. And it does it in a very accurate and painless way. It is a very good home defense weapon and one I would want in my car if ever involved in an active shooter situation and I had to make a quick and accurate shot to protect me and mine. Making it anything other that what it is futile. Kind of like a Glock. Just shoot the damn thing and quit trying to make it what it isn't.

Keep it Classy and Be Safe,
Jerry

[M-Tecs]

Well stated sir!!!!!!!

AR's have become "America's rifle" for a reason. For the past 25 years I have been an avid prairie dog shooter. In a slow year I will fire 2,000 rounds at PD's. In a good year it's as high as 6,000. I also build NRA match rifles on the side. I expect 1/2 MOA for 10 shot groups from the AR's I build.

Les Baer http://www.lesbaer.com/223varmint.html "We'll guarantee that our Super Varmint Model will shoot 1/2 MOA groups! Included with each gun is a target with two five-shot groups shot at 100 yards"

It is not uncommon for me to shoot 3/8" MOA 10 shot groups with AR's I build but I only will guarantee 1/2" MOA.

I have 223 bolt guns also but I don't use them for PD's anymore since the AR's are way more effective for killing PD's. My 22-250AI, 6mm Br, 6mm XC and my 6.5 x 284 PD rifles are boltguns.

. Making it anything other that what it is futile. Kind of like a Glock. Just shoot the damn thing and quit trying to make it what it isn't.

Here is a picture of a 1/2 grown fox that ran through the PD town at 325 yards. I didn't lead the first couple of shots enough but I did catch up to him. Next is Dad with one of my AR's. He is 91 years old. The last is Dad with his Tikka 595 in .223 and my Tubb 2000 in 6mm XC.

[Lefty Red]

What is incorrect about what I stated about the development of the AR?
And yes, you can make a lawnmower fly, with enough money throw at it!
So jump to conclusion, I am anti gun. HMMM, just because I don't worship the Holy Black Rifle? Because I stated how it came to be? What is wrong with that? Its the truth. Its a pretty amazing weapon, especially what for what its intended for firing at the enemy and high velocity round at a high rate of speed. It wasn't developed for bench rest, hunting, or fun times. The AR's ability to do those things, when properly set up and usually at a high cost, also speaks for the weapon. I made an example where an AR costed over twice the amount of a good bolt and still couldn't hang with the shooting at hand. Its stupid to try to make a purse out of sow's ear. But people do. Good for them. I work hard for my money. My AR is plain jane and runs fine and looks like hell from training and shooting it weekly. So does my bolt action. Two tools for two different jobs.

So I do not have no desire to use an AR for anything other than self defense and training. That butt hurts you and well, you are an idiot. You should me adult enough to do whatever you want to do and not have to have my blessing. I sure do and don't need your are anyone's approval.

And how does where I live have to do with my morals and upbringing? All IL residents now marked as anti gun? Really? Funny, I kind of remember me walking in rallies and helping out at the ranges on family days. Guess that doesn't count.

Ans answer me this, is Glock bashing getting the same response from you as me stating I don't like the AR outside of self defense rifle and stating its development as a weapon of war? Aren't the Glock bashers now anti gun and giving the liberal media ammo for banning all guns?Jerry

[M-Tecs]

Carl Bernosky, David Tubb and others have both won the Nationals at Camp Perry with AR's. As a gun builder the AR is the easiest of all rifles to get to shoot well. A good barrel like a Krieger, a free float handguard and good trigger and you are done. Making an AR shoot well costs no more than an other rifle and since no bedding is required it may be less.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Well I can say with no sense of shame that I am of the generation of "RIFLEMEN" that used the 03 Springfield in all its variations, the M-1 Garand again in all its variations and finally the M-14/M-1A in its different guises. I have handled the M-16, shot it, used it and wouldn`t own one of them if I had to. If I wish to hunt with a rifle, it will be with about anything else other than an m-16 or a clone of it.Robert

[joesig]

I'm not a fan of the AR or 223 but they fill a niche that nothing else can. "The Erector set for adults."

I haven't decided if I am happy or sad Ruger and Savage make rifles today that cost less than they did 35 years ago. When you factor in inflation it is even more amazing!

[craig61a]

Just because a drunk man is happier than a sober one does not mean he a thoughtful thinker.

Haha! I love that...

[BrianL]

As someone who started out in Highpower with a Garand, then a state M-14 and finally the black gun. I remember times when I went to the local range and was ridiculed as a "Pray and sprayer". I proceeded to kick their benched rifle groups butt from prone with open sights. It has come a long way. Now everyone is an expert and the only guns in the magazines are AR based. Good thing that it is a HUGE bandwagon so there is room for everyone to climb aboard.

[country gent]

Your number 4 reason is off the mark, It wasnt until the 80 grn high bc bullets and fast twist arrived that the ARs and 223 round became a viable performer at 600 yds in the matches, wjile the M14 in 308 with battle ammo was a solid performer at 800-1000 yds. The Ar didnt have extended range. I dont believe the M16 specs were layed out but that Eugene Stoner built the rifle to prototype new ideas then presented it to the army for testing. At the time were many new ideas and technologies being tested in this platform. As far as self defense goes its the M14 for me. To put this into perspective I started competeing with the garand in 308, upgraded to M1A in 308 and was switching over to ARs when MS forced me to give up high power shooting. The AR platforms do perform very well and really arnt second to any other rifle in any way ( other than looks of the plastic and annodizing over walnut and bluing). In the 60s and 70s the army was back where it was at the Spanish american war, More that had never fired a rifle or seen one than had. Made training harder. The NRAs original charter was to promote marksmanship. The AR is light simple and accurate saving training time for new recruits that have no skill set to start with.

[Lefty Red]

I still don't know how a thread on the high price of cheap single shot longgun got so out of hand.

If you want to make any weapon shoot very well, please do your heart's bidding. If you want to make a lever action 30/30 a urban tactical weapon and paint it black and put rails and ammo carries on it and add a light and a laser please do it. But don't come to me and tell it its the awesomest thingy ever! You will get butt hurt real quick.

If a national champion shooter that shoots daily for a professional shooting team wins a match with a Hi Point, I am still not going to sell my other weapons and buy it! I am sure the shooter could out shoot me with a BB gun.

I got personal with Cajun Shooter. I shouldn't have. I should have been a bigger man but I wasn't. To tell me I am anti gun and helping one of the worste gun right congress-women of my time just hit home. Like I said, is the Glock bashers in the same boat as me? If I don't embrace the new SCAR should I just stop shooting? How about my views on semi auto shotguns? Since I don't own a 1911, does that mean I am wanting the 2nd A over turned?

I am glad the AR is popular. I am glad any weapon is. But putting $1000s into one is just crazy to me. If it isn't to you, good for you. I would rather put $2500 into a Dakota Arms rifle and scope. Or maybe a Nice Sharps! Or have Conn Arms fit me a 16/28 gauge SxS combo. Or a Fulton Armory M14 done right! I just think the AR is good as is and used in what I perceived as its intent. My M&P 15 is plain and only has an extra mag holder and a light. That is it. Has thousands of cheap Tula and Wolf ammo down its tube. Its propped up beside the bed ready for action with Hornady TACT ammo. I feel ready for anything and doubt I will need more than 1-3 shoots on target before the threat is non active. I train up close, but I benched it last month at the range. Still get 3-4" groups with flip up sights at 100 yards. Its barrel and chamber is clean. I clean my rifle whenever its shot, just habit. Same goes for my Glock. Now do I take it hunting ? No. Do I try to group it at 1000 yards? Nope. There are way better choices.

And as far as the AR being "America's Rifle"........I do not wish that name for such a soulless piece of machinery. A beautiful Model 70 is much more deserving of that title. Or a 1775 Charlesville (sp?) or a Hawkins. What about the 1911 or S&W 28? Or what about just a 10/22. I would embrace that! That tells me America wants to teach its children to grow up with a fun rifle and be able to go shoot it and that those freedoms will never fade. And that 22lr ammo will be plentiful again.

Jerry

[Lucky Joe]

I like my Glock, don't have an AR nothing against them just don't have a use for one. If that changes I'll get one, it's late just wanted to add something to something.