How to price out a sporterized Enfield?

[gkainz]

Hi 303guy
Would different photos help to clarify anything? Should there be marking under the side mount scope mount on the left side of the receiver?
Greg (op)

[RogerDat]

Well I don't know about not being popular, finding 303 British ammo was not exactly easy for awhile so some folks must have them. Are they as big as the AR's nope but not exactly an odd rifle for people to own either. Last gun show I think pretty much everyone selling brass had some for the 303. They don't haul it there if it won't find buyers.

Unless there is some history to this specific version of sportorized it won't appeal to the Enfield aficionados that own multiples. But to my mind a nice bolt action rifle .30 caliber 2,400 fps has to be worth at least $300 to $400 if it is accurate. I would be surprised if it was a tack driver but with the other work done it may well be an especially good shooter for an Enfield.

[303Guy]

Hi 303guy
Would different photos help to clarify anything? Should there be marking under the side mount scope mount on the left side of the receiver?
Greg (op)

More photo's would help yes. They would also be great just to look at.

I don't have a No5 so I am not familiar with the differences between the action bodies. Perhaps someone with sample of each could post photo's to enlighten us?

The one above is my recently acquired Mk1 which has the same bolt release as yours. The woodwork is not quite what one might expect or prefer but the bore looks good under the dirt (I haven't cleaned it yet) and the bayonet lugs have not been cut off.

[gkainz]

aha ... sadly, that area is under the side scope mount that I don't really want to pull off.

On a side note (not sure to say "positive" or not) ... I had a little bit of time at lunch to run it over to the range to shoot up the remaining 10 rounds I have (had) for it. But ... and this shocked me ... the remaining 5 Norma rounds I had left stuck to the magnet when they did their ammo check for rifles - "no steel or A/P ammo" ... but these were standard looking jacketed rounds. Box said "Norma No 17712 303. BRIT. 150 grain soft point"

So, only got to shoot 5 rounds of Remington 180 gr soft point core-loct

Using an NRA 200 Yard High Power target (Simulates 600 yard slow fire), the combination of trifocal glasses and tired old eyes, and I couldn't make out the scoring rings ... so held for center of the black blob and managed to keep them all on paper. Not a group I "usta could" shoot, but this getting old stuff is full of surprises

So anyway, here's the best I could do today, with apologies to the rifle, whom I'm quite certain has a lot more potential than I was able to exhibit today.

[JeffHolt]

I came home with a 1917 Enfield III (4 digit serial number) metal and parts looks to be original and matching. The stock was obviously trimmed down and the rear sight replaced and a scope mount added. bore is in surprisingly fine shape. The dealer wanted $149 for it so it followed me home. I'm pretty pleased with it actually. Another guy told me back in the 50' and 60's the catalogue companies got hold of all these mil-surp guns and sporterized them for the civilian market. no checkering or nice end caps or anything on the stock fairly simple and good condition.

[starmac]

I find it funny that folks would go buy any number of firearms of less quality but scoff at one like this that has had some serious work to actually make it an extremely usable gun. Everybody has there own ideas of what something is worth, and to me this is worth more than any original wall hanger.
At the gun shows around here, it would have a 600 price tag on it, and I doubt they would come off much.

[KCSO]

Around here $300 to $350 tops. As nice as it is and as much work thT went into it you still have a sporterized 303,
and worst of all it's modified so that it can't be put back to a full #5 which are bringing a premium.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Starmac: there is a group of guys who think Enfields are some rare commodity that must be preserved in their original form or else God will punish them. They made 17 Million of these guns!

I look at it this way and I personally think this is the only way to look at this issue.

If the gun is above 75% condition then it probably could be left alone. If it can be restored by only cosmetic work then sure it can be restored. So many of the Enfields we have seen over the years simply look BAD! But when you dig deeper you find they are so marginal that they can't be restored without a complete arsenal rebuild.

You don't have the proper stamps to do this.

Also I find that a lot of the purists think just be cause a gun looks like it has been thru a war that it has some big history attached to it.

News Flash: If you can't document that history,,, it doesn't exist in the real world, and as such no value can be placed on it. In collecting firearms,,, "documentation" is everything!

A gun may have killed a prominent German General, however when the war was over it just got thrown onto a pile of guns and all of it's history was lost. IE; it is worth no more than any other gun in that pile.

When a gun is worked on, if that work improves that gun, that is a good thing. Just because a gun has been sporterized it's value shouldn't be dropped to nothing. When you are talking custom guns the workmanship is where the value is at.

If your gun was a BSA Lee Speed or a gun produced by one of the prominent British Gun Makers it would certainly be worth a bunch. If the workmanship is really good then it should fetch a higher value.

Griffin & Howe produced some very nice Springfield Sporters, as did Niedner, Hoffman, and some others. Everyone of them is worth more than the best most pristine issue grade Springfield rifle, unless that gun has some documented history attached to it.

Mausers are the same way. Literally millions of them have been converted to sporting rifles, and the workmanship, and who did it, are the factors driving their value.

Enfields will go up in value,,, Even the sporterized ones. it all comes down to the value of other guns, because as those guns find places in the real world there becomes a market for other guns.

Mosin Nagants are very popular right now. And the British guns are coming up because the Springfields, and Mausers are drying up.

Try to buy either of these for $300. Both made by American Gunsmiths.

Randy

[starmac]

I just traded for a #4 MK/3 (F) FTR That I think only the wood has been altered, sooooo I guess it could be put back to original. However for my use it is worth more to me with the cut down stock. At least I can see the sights on this one, I have an old VZ24 that the original sights are absolutely useless for these eyes of mine. lol

[303Guy]

Well said, Randy. I have one or two Lee Enfield's that strictly speaking should be chopped and changed but I can't bring myself to do it. I must say that the SMLE losing the clip charger bridge is not too bad at all. I want to lighten the bridge, after all, all it has to do is carry the scope mount base or a rear open sight and yes, it does work - if the U notch is correctly sized.

[BigEyeBob]

Nice rifles Randy very nice , they have the traditional English sporter profile which I like very much , the one standing on the butt stock looks to have a modified magazine maybe a cut down to five shot.
I prefer no bridge on the SMLE 's side mounted are much more practical , because it allows you to use the iron sights if the scope is damaged .
A QD side mount is even better , but they are far and few .
I got my BSA LeeMetford 303 yesterday and have been toying with it today it was shipped with the butt stock removed to conform to Aus posts package limits .
I put it back on and that wierd stock that I wasn't too crazy about actually fits pretty good and my eye is just about spot on the sights I'm pretty chuffed with it .Maybe the maker wasn't too far off after all.
Rifle is in very good condition , bore is excellent , bluing is very good , a bit worn on the magazine bottom but to be expected .Nice flip up express sights , front sight is a blade with a protecting blade on each side of it .
I bought a vintage side mount to put a scope one it but may not end up doing that .
Tested the safety on the bolt , there is a bit of a problem with it which I will have to give some attention to , will have to investigate further .


Kev.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kev:

Very nice looking rifle. I think you done good.

The rifle on the buffalo is a #4 Mk1 in .45-70 cal. The other is a #1 made by Lon Paul noted gunsmith. It is in .348 Winchester.

Both are excellent examples of what can be done with these guns. The basic Enfield action, be it #1 or #4 is pretty much bullet proof and dead reliable, and the only problem I see with them is the amount of time you must put in one to smooth them out. This is all part of the fun.

The problem they have as popular sporting arms in the US is the fact that all the good commercial ones were kept in the UK and British Colonies, and the only ones which seemed to make their way to the US were the ugly ducklings that showed up at the local drug store for $9.95 and looked like they had been dragged behind a Jeep.

The only Enfield Sporting Rifles we ever saw were Parker Hales simple conversions which didn't do much to fuel the desire for Nice Sporting Rifles made on these actions. Both my guns started as converted guns done most probably by PH. This one I'm working now for sure was a PH "Deluxe Sporter." Which is nothing more than a Long Branch cut to 22" with a new front sight and abbreviated and reshaped fore end. More like a Crescent Wrench than a nice sporting rifle.

If the US public had been exposed to Lee Speed Rifles or conversions done by upper end British Makers things would be different and these guns would occupy a different place more in line with sporterized Mausers and Springfields.

Part of my mission is to show what can be done with readily available after market stocks, and newer finishes and hopefully spark some interest in these guns as more inexpensive alternatives to work on than Mausers or Springfields. None of the other 20th Century Military Rifles, like the Jap, or Italian or even Russian make very good Sporters. I can see a place for a Finnish Nagant simply because the only thing left of the captured Russian rifles the Finns used were the receivers, the rest was essentially Sako. Nothing wrong with the 7.62x 54R Round as it is in the same ball park as the .303, .30-40, .30-06 etc.

Anyway we will make more progress in a few days and see how this Sows Ear turns out.

Randy

[303Guy]

Lee Enfield's make great sporting rifles when their attributes are utilized and the cartridge is just fine too. The 35/303 would be just about optimum in both brush carbine or normal length. I have a Lithgow sporter in 25/303 with a long slender barrel. Nice rifle and very accurate too. Great cartridge.

[BigEyeBob]

Lee Enfield's make great sporting rifles when their attributes are utilized and the cartridge is just fine too. The 35/303 would be just about optimum in both brush carbine or normal length. I have a Lithgow sporter in 25/303 with a long slender barrel. Nice rifle and very accurate too. Great cartridge.

I have a 303/25 built on a 96Mauser , its a good Axis deer killer and very accurate ,has a Sportco barrel .I also have a 303/270 built on a Kar 98 Mauser ,still playing around with loads for this one .
I find I can bump up the volume with both of them a bit more than I would load a SMLE .
Im considering rebarreling the 270 to 318WR . 35/303 would be ok as well.

Kev.

Kev.

[BruceB]

When I was growing up in Canada, during the '50s, many thousands of .303 rifles were in use by local hunters.

Domestic ammunition from Canadian Industries Limited was of VERY high quality and efficiency, and the economy was sufficiently depressed to make low-cost rifles such as 'converted' .303s very attractive.

I've used .303 rifles to kill moose, bears and caribou with absolutely no difficulty at all.

Not one animal was ever lost when I hunted with the .303. I consider it to be the full equal of the .308, and with those old CIL loads it trod perilously-close to the ballistics of factory .30'06 ammunition.

It's an extremely effective round just as it stands, and frankly I wouldn't bother with wild-catting it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

BruceB: I had to change it. I already had a good example of a #4 Mk1, and really when I saw this one all I could think of was boring it out to a larger caliber. The existing 2 groove bore was not all that great to begin with.

It was a toss up between .375-303 and .35-303 and the greater availability of 35 cal. bullets and boolits was the deciding factor. I can go from 150 to 310 gr with Jacketed bullets and will probably settle on 250 gr Cast as my Steel Target load. Pistol boolits will work also and I already have a 173 gr Lyman SWC mould I can use.

Pretty sure My .303 with any of the 150, 174, or 215 gr bullets I now have in stock will take anything I would choose to shoot at. I know it is killing those steel targets very well, in fact I have to go load some more ammo for next Saturday.

But the whole point of the other gun was to build something different but cool. With 250 gr cast or jacketed bullets it should be a good shooting gun, and definitely different.

Randy

[BruceB]

Absolutely!

Your rifle, your decision.

Having an "iffy" bore is one of the best-possible reasons for a rebore, and I understand perfectly. For *MY* purposes, it would come down to whether or not the rifle itself was worth the expenditure in my opinion.

Are you aware that Criterion is now making new .303 #4 barrels, complete with bayonet lugs?

I'm truly a devotee of the .303 Enfields, and I share your fascination with them. They have served me well for decades, and I still believe I saved myself from death or serious injury with one many years back.....range virtually ZERO yards.

Such experiences tend to increase the regard I hold for the .303 Lee Enfield rifles...

[leebuilder]

Niffty
love 303s dont why but i do. Always been facinated with what they have been doing down under would love to get down there with an import/export licence and a fist full of fiftys. Realy like those .223 convertions. Only one wildcat up here that i know up here thats 303 Epps, but never seen one. Got one of those AIA No4 Mk4 B-10 nice gun but not worth the price.
I would never price out a 303 unless i have it in my hands. Can still find bubba'ed ones here for 50$ some are still shootable with most of the part, arg. When i price one out i do it honestly the peanut gallery is always listening and ready to try and prove me wrong.
many of the 303s i have were given to me from peaple fed up with the defuncked gun registry.
But one thing is for certain the price is always climbing and the days off the full dress No 4 for 65$ are a thing of the past.
be well

[gwpercle]

Keep the 303 sporter and renegotiate that agreement.....that's a nice one , you gonna regret getting rid of her. Maybe you could sell the CFO, no I think there is a law against that...just fix that contract...must be a loophole somewhere in it!
Gary

[BigEyeBob]

There a reason for so many wildcat SMLE's in Australia , after the war the FED govt sold off thousands of surplus SMLE's to the public .
In New South Wales the state govt enacted legislation to prevent the public from owning a rifle in a military calibre .So the smart shooters had them converted to other calibres. 22/303 ( two cartridge lengths ) ,243 /303 . 25/303 , 25/303 sprinter ,270/303 , 35/303 etc also someone decided to shorten the chamber so a full lenth 303 cartridge would not chamber which made it legal .Imported rifles from the US were expensive in those days so the only way to go was convert a cheap surplus rifle to another calibre.When I was a much younger bloke the local hardware store near where I lived had unfire SMLE' s with clean white wood with a packet of military ammo going for $20.00AUD.

The 25/303 was probably the most popular conversion ,a company called Sportco did a huge amount of them ,there are still a lot of them circulating and some go for very low dollars.This Sportco conversion went for $195.00AUD yesterday ,the only way to get the ammunition is to reload , there are a lot of blokes who still use the 303/25 , and absolutely love it

The other two pics are my 303/270 Mauser 98 and the Swede in 303 /25 both have Sportco barrels and Timney trigger conversions the Swede was done in the 50's by a gunsmith in South Australia ,it has the original military stock has had a grip inlet into the stock and checkered .I do have a new stock for it waiting for time for me to fit and finish .

Kev