Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[Hickok]

Just something that befuddles me at times, and I would like some other opinions.

This pertains strictly to iron sight revolvers, no scopes or other optics.

What I am talking about is when I read something that goes something like this; (you can add own brand, caliber, boolit, etc)

Example; "Today I shot my S&W .44 mag with a 4 inch barrel, using a 325 gr cast boolit loaded to 1350 fps. Off the bench @ 25 yds. groups were only so-so, running 1 1/2" to 2" for 6 shots. I fired 5 groups of 6 shots each, and that is the best the S&W would do!"

Now my thoughts;

Maybe I am not a very good shot with a handgun after all these years,

Maybe my casting produces boolits of inferior quality,

Maybe my bench shooting technique is faulty,

Maybe I am using the wrong powders, or the wrong powder charges with the powders I use,

Maybe my S&W's, Ruger BH's and SBH's are worn out/shot out,

BUT, I think I am shooting great, the load is performing well, and the handgun is accurate when I can keep'em all in a 1 1/2 to 2 inch group off the bench @ 25 yards.

Maybe my expectations are low.

What are your gentlemen's thought and opinions.

[rintinglen]

Some of the best shooting I ever heard of was done with a key board. I like it even better when it was off-hand when the shooting was alleged to have been done.
Now let's be clear on one thing: there are plenty of guns that will do 4-5 minutes. Clamped in a Ransom rest that is properly set up on a solid bench, loaded with GOOD ammo, after a cylinder or two to seat the gun in the insert, a revolver of quality manufacture can astound. I have seen numerous groups fired that were well under 2 inches and even a few that were under 1 inch. The first FA 454 I ever saw was such a gun. It would put round after round in the same hole.
However, it takes a heap of practice to approach that level of skill with an iron sighted revolver. And good vision is a must. It also helps to be on the near side of 30, not the far side of 60. However, there are apparently many such persons around. I read their postings on various sites all the time.

[Scharfschuetze]

Some of the best shooting I ever heard of was done with a key board.

Ha, ha! Yes, well said.

I think I am shooting great, the load is performing well, and the handgun is accurate when I can keep'em all in a 1 1/2 to 2 inch group off the bench @ 25 yards.

You're getting better results than most, thinks I. Unless I'm shooting a built up match pistol, I'm very happy with 2" at 25 yards and to be honest, only a few of my handguns will do that consistently.

[jmort]

I am right there with you Hickok, or even less so. I really don't shoot off a bench, so I look for a cluster, not a group. There are some amazing shooters out there. I am often left feeling inadequate.

[1Shirt]

If I could shoot revolvers at 25 as you report, I would be very satisfied.
1Shirt!

[Outpost75]

A dispersion of about "1 inch per ten" (yards) of range has been the expectation for a service pistol or revolver since blackpowder days. An accurized M1911 pistol or custom made PPC target revolver firing off a Ransom Rest with good wadcutter match ammunition can do about half of that, or about 2-1/2" at fifty yards for ten-shot groups.

Any stock factory handgun firing factory ammunition which will average 2 inches or better for a series of 5- or 6-shot groups at 25 yards, firing hand held, with iron sights, off sandbags, is quite good and speaks well for the ammunition and the shooter. The target below was fired with my .45 Colt New Service M1909 with Saeco #954 bullets, as-cast and unsized at .456", loaded with 6.5 grains of Bullseye for 880 fps. Not bad for 66-year-old eyes at 100 yards. The same load shoots about 2" to 2-1/2" for six shots at 25 yards, and is about the best which this old duffer can manage.

Attachment 126075Attachment 126081

[MarkP]

Similar results from my S&W's & Ruger SBH, BH, RH. I have read where others can routinely shoot iron sighted revolvers as well as respectable bench rest rifles shoot on a calm day. I have a custom 7-1/2 lb XP-100 that I have won a few matches with that will not shoot as well as some revolver claims.

Like gas mileage; tend to quote the best tank ever as a typical average.

[45 2.1]

Ahhh.... This is one of those threads where nobody can do any better than the most normal guy out there. Actually, the results follow the standard bell shaped distribution curve. Some revolvers do better than others... much, much better.... and some do worse. That depends a lot on just what you put in them, but that is up to the shooter. A good seasoned shooter can place his shots in the end of a Coke can at 50 yards... some of these guys do the inner part of it. All it takes is practice... lots of it .... to the tune of at least 50,000 rounds by the time you get there. If you can't do it, then practice some more.

[sundog]

Prexactly! One and a half to two inches. Which was it? 1 1/2 or 2? If it was 2 then it is 2, not 1 1/2 to 2, unless it was some kind of a ring with nothing inside 1 1/2. It's only as good as the largest group. It's not something that it isn't.

[Hickok]

Man do I feel better. Like JMortimer stated, I was beginning to feel inadequate!

I don't mean to give the impression that I shoot sub 2 inch groups all the time at 25 yds, but I strive hard for a good load/ handgun combination that will consistently hold 2 inches off the bags at 25 yds, and when it happens I am very happy with myself, the gun and load, but NO it doesn't always happen, some days are better than others. But after several sessions, I get a pretty good idea that the load is "good to go."

Then all my shooting with that combination is off-hand, and practicing varying field positions for hunting etc.

You guys have helped restore my confidence!

[Artful]

There is a lot to shooting small groups - hitting small targets and at range.

Accuracy of the handgun itself - test with Ransom Rest or the like, it can surprise you.
Accuracy of yourself - put a scope or laser on a handgun and dry fire - that will tell you a lot about you.

That said I used to shoot handgun sillywet (was well as bullseye, ppc, USPSA, and three gun) and
will tell you that if you shoot 50-65K per year you will shoot better - it take that much practice to get up to top of state rankings.
but if you only shoot 100 a day with concentration - even dry fire - you will improve.
Most of us recreational shooters maybe get out once a quarter - once a month if lucky.

Now having said this, I know a handgun can hit a 4x5 inch target at 150 meters and
at 200 meters a 10x12 inch target - 9 out of 10 times.

Again it's a team of the gun/load and the shooter.
One suggestion look of a quality air pistol for indoor practice this winter.

[NSB]

A consistent 2" five shot group at 25yds is good shooting. It's not great shooting, but good shooting. I'd say that if you can do that on a regular basis you're in the top ten percent of the handgun shooting public. That being said, I've seen shooters that can keep them in 1" on a consistent basis at that distance and a few that can do even better. As stated, it takes a LOT of shooting, a LOT. The very top long distance, highly accurate shooters, using revolvers or automatics shoot 30-50,000 rounds a year to achieve that status. I have had two custom built revolvers that would regularly shoot a ragged hole at 25yds off a bench and I mean on a regular basis. Bill Davis used to make revolvers that the owners called "one holers". Sadly, I sold them both off when I got out of match shooting. I doubt the present owners have a clue about what they are capable of.

[ejcrist]

My goal for a given load and revolver combination is =< 2" off a rest at 25 yards. That doesn't mean I always get there but that's the goal. I have a few revolvers that'll shoot < 2" but most hover a little above 2" no matter what I do to make them better. Like you, after I get the load down pat and everything tuned properly, which could drag out for quite a while, I sight in at 50 yards and practice off-hand shooting steel silhouettes or targets at hunting ranges. But yeah, I've read an awful lot of keyboard shooters sub 1" groups and thought I must be a truly bad shooter if that's the case. Glad to see it isn't.

[Airman Basic]

I'm kinda happy with minute of tin can at 25 yards, and an occasional miss. 50 yards, an occasional hit. 100 yards, cause for celebration, especially with witnesses.

[Hickok]

Yep, 50 yards is my zero range with handgun iron sights after the load work-up done.

[fecmech]

IMO you have to have very good visual acuity to shoot 1" 25 yd iron sighted groups if the gun and load are capable AND good bench technique. As a previous poster mentioned a scope or dot sight are a great help in load development and showing up your faults. I still have two guns (a 1911 wad gun and K38) that I had years ago with a Ransom rest. The rest is gone but I can still match the Ransom groups(benched)@ 50 yds with the dot sights on both guns. I never could do that with irons even as a young man with 20/15 vision.

[44man]

Back in the days of eyesight a 1/2" group at 50 yards was standard from a .44 with opens. Not off hand but Creedmore. Best I ever shot was 2-1/2" at 500 yards with a red dot. Then 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards, first shot a sighter my friend spotted. I gave the BFR .475 to him, told him where to aim and he hit 3X. Drove many rifle shooters from the range as we shot their target after asking. Some came to see what the hell we were shooting.
Yes, a revolver can do it. My favorite gun ever.
The S&W 29 can do 1/2" at 50 as can a Ruger SBH Hunter. No Bisley though. I have a shotgun shell on my bench that I shot at 100 yards with my .500 JRH. I also shot 5 shotgun shells in the base at 50 yards with it, 3/4" targets. Not the gun most of the time or you, it is coming from your loading bench.
My pictures have gotten me tossed from sites. Called a liar. Tossed from the single action site but lee Martin was here to see me take 1" targets at 100, wanted me back. Not going to happen.
I do not keyboard shoot. Many here are in the know and will actually out shoot me. My younger friends out shoot me now. They use my loads.
It is imagination, sit and hold your head and imagine what goes on in a revolver. Test and test, all written and posted and you will reject so much.

[35remington]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.

[NSB]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.

You are completely spot on. I have seen the best shooters in the world shoot and I can tell you that .5" on demand is not going to happen with any revolver at fifty yards shooting Creedmore. I read this stuff all the time but it NEVER happens at a shoot. It always happens without documentation and reliable witnesses. I wouldn't say that someone never shot one group that size one time at 50yds, I'd say they can't do it on demand. I shot competition for years and I never saw anyone who could do this on demand. I've seen some incredible feats of marksmanship at different times but not to where the shooter doing it could wager that they could repeat it at will.

[44man]

I'll suggest there's pretty much no way an off the shelf Smith or Ruger will do half an inch at fifty on demand.

There. I said it. Always wanted to given some of the claims made. My accurized High Standards won't do it and these have more accuracy potential than revolvers do. Yes, any revolver.

The manufacturers themselves won't even go that far, I'll warrant. Perspective is good. Realistic expectations are good as well.

Not so, new revolvers out of box have done it. On demand--- NO, we are a weak link. I don't claim that anymore but years ago I could.