The "Inscrutable" Cast Softpoint EXPANSION TEST

[BruceB]

Rotational speed (reduced):

I did consider the reduced-rpm factor, and decided that for THIS test, it wasn't important. This is because the reduction in velocity only amounts to 10% to 15% from what I'd consider to be a full-power CAST hunting load, and the same sort of reduction in the jacketed 'control' load.

That is, the .30s are running about 10% less than full power jacketed loads (2500 vs 2800 or so) and the 311299 at 1800 is about 15% under what I consider a reasonable hunting-level speed for a 210 cast bullet (1800 vs 2100). The .338s at 1800 are similarly (15%) reduced from the 2100-2200 speed range which I think is easily reached, with hunting accuracy, with the Lee 220-grain bullet.

I'll be interested to see how the .45 bullets perform at their lower speed of 1500 fps.

Another reason that reduced rotation speed is non-critical here is that ALL the loads which are reduced, are reduced in similar degrees, meaning that the results among the various bullets should still bear a valid relationship.

Later on, perhaps I'll do another test (if the box survives this go-round) , firing full-power loads from 100 yards. It would be interesting, to say the least, to compare the point-blank expansion at reduced speeds with the 'real' loads at 'real' distance. I'd have to give VERY careful attention to my zeroing!

Bullets striking other bullets inside the box:

I dropped a couple of bullets into the pot of fully-soaked rice, to see what would happen. Both bullets could be heard striking the bottom of the pot very shortly after going out of sight, so I'm not very worried about collisions. Even if such collisions were to occur, they would be at much-reduced speed, for certain, after a couple of feet of penetration in the slurry. A "slurry" is a substance capable of being pumped from place to place, not a solid mass. Y'all will note that i mentioned a "layer of water"above the surface of the rice.....this stuff will be a good bit thinner than oatmeal (which was also considered as a medium). This leads me to....

Partitions in the box:

With the medium being a semi-liquid, waterproofness in the partitions would be essential. Anyway, all I really want to find out is the final form of the bullets, and how/when they assume that form isn't too critical at THIS time....maybe later, it will be.

Lloyd's generous offer of some bullets to test:

THANKS, Lloyd. Since I want to fire this test in the next few days, there won't be enough time. If I extend this to further tests, I'll sure keep the offer in mind. You sobered up yet? Always remember: " 'Reality' is for those who can't tolerate alcohol or drugs."

Waksupi's "unexpected consequences on the first shot":

O ye of little faith!!!!!! I'll have you know that I yam a PROFESSIONAL tinkerer/disaster-maker, and I won't admit that anything going wrong was 'unexpected'. Murphy is one of my best acquaintances. Still, if nobody hears anything for a few days after next weekend, y'all might consider sending a search party. Bring beer.

[scrapcan]

Bruce,

You could always cook that rice a little to make it a thicker medium. Might make recovery a little more difficult, but thicker it would be. I see a bonfire, a barrel, and a sack of rice plus water. The night before is a bit of beer and a fun bonfire. The next day after you sleep off the hangover, you do the shooting. sounds like a hoot.

And on a side note rice is expressed as one of the more dangerous of the cargos to be shipped by sea. This is due to the expansion ratio of dry versus soaked rice. if you fill a hold with rice to the top and you get it wet, it will push a ship apart. Oh but a bit of worthless trivia to go with a good test.

I anxiously await your results.

[robertbank]

Bruce I wait with some anticipation. Really interested in how the .30 cal boolits work out. I intend to cast a few soft nose boolits this winter for my three center fire rifles. With our dollar being as strong as it is right now molds and presses are relatively inexpensive - least cheaper than they were three years ago for us. Going to have to expand my .30 cal mold inventory.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

I made some the other night using a 32 ball purchased for the purpose. It fit well in a hot 30 cal mold and was at the minimum weight wanted. Gianni.

[BruceB]

It looks like tomorrow will be the shooting day, as weather conditions are forecast to worsen on Saturday.

Photos won't be available on-line until late next week ...my "technical staff" (wife and daughter) will be out of town until then.

I will post shooting results, however, and then y'all can wait for the actual pics of the bullets while already knowing how things worked.

I'm adding a few more loads to the list already posted, so I hope it'll increase the depth and interest of the test.

The rice will be put to soak first thing in the morning, and transported in a big plastic barrel to the shooting site for filling the Box. By mid-day it should be pleasant to be outside and shooting.

With The Box on the tailgate, I'll be using the rifle rest from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest, positioned on a B&D Workmate, to shoot from. The relative heights seem about right. Placing muzzles ten feet from The Box should allow minimal blast effect on the rubber partition which seals the end of the assembly.

Shallow compartments have been built-in along the box's bottom to allow recording the distance of penetration for each bullet, within a six-inch tolerance (partitions at 24", 30", 36", 42", 48" and 54" from the entry end of the 60" box).

Should be an interesting exercise.

[KSCowboy]

I have just found this thread and to say I am captivated is an understatement. Being a bit of a mad scientist about these sorts of things myself I'm loving seeing how this developed and the suggestions. If this works well I can see my wife questioning my stock piling of several 50 pound bags of rice. But then my family couldn't understand why I built a dummy wall of 2x4 studs and half inch sheet rock just to shoot it full of holes tesing various miracle bullets like Magsafes and such along with JHP, FMJ, various lead bullets, etc.. Anybody want to see pictures?

My only concern is that I don't like divulging the technology Bruce uses to individually identify bullets to the public as some politician might get wind of it. You know what they're doing out in Californy don't ya? They'll pass a law that bullet casters have to sit home and scribe a pin number on each our our creations!!

I'm pulling for ya Bruce, we're all in this together. Carry on.

KSCowboy

[BruceB]

Waksupi is a clairvoyant of the very finest kind, forecasting "unexpected results on the first shot".

Got to the shooting spot, set everything up (the rice didn't expand like my "test potful" did, so I had only about 3/4 of the box filled with the slurry....the rice was still very much "al dente" even after six hours of soaking.)

Starting at the bottom of the power ladder for the loads I brought, I touched-off a 311299 softpoint at 1800 FPS. That's all it took. The near end of the bottom plywood, 1/2" exterior-grade (good stuff, you'd think) was sucked UP toward the bullet path, and splintered gloriously over almost a square foot. It's still dished in, on checking when I got home. This stuff is RIPPED BODILY APART, not split along the grain or voids anything like that.

Well, now comes The Box, Mark II, I reckon. I can salvage this one by adding some 3/4" plywood
around the disaster site and stiffening it up in general. WHAT AN IMPACT! It was very impressive indeed. Right now, I'm glad I didn't sashay happily forth with the .416 Rigby hunting load for the first shot, which is 370 grains at 2050 fps, with a flat nose, yet!

I'm a little disturbed at the waste of 80 pounds of rice, though. The stuff was pouring off the tailgate like lava from Mauna Loa. Fortunately, there were no witnesses except all you fellers here.

Maybe next week I'll have it set to try again.

[garandsrus]

Bruce,

A video would have been really great!

John

[waksupi]

Yup.

Saw it, right off.

[Springfield]

They don't call it hydrostatic SHOCK for nothing.

[montana_charlie]

When I read your opening post, I thought 1 x 2 lumber seemed somewhat light, but figured that in one-foot lengths, it might do. That size lumber should have tipped me off that you were probably using half-inch plywood, but I missed it.

If you could scrounge up a five foot length of 12-inch corregated culvert it would make a 'box' with walls that are hard to 'suck in'. I would pick the kind with "individual" corrugations...not the "spiraled" type. That should make it easier to seal the ends.
CM

[Buckshot]

.............Saw a test in some magazine at some date in the past. It was recent enough for color photo's and zip-loc baggies though . Don't recall if it was rifle too, or just handguns. All it was, was a plywood outside framed trough with an overhead cross rail every so often, and large (gallon sized?) water filled zip-loc baggies placed inside.

There was another open topped one filled with packed oiled sawdust. I'm thinking Bob Milek did it but my memory fades as it was some years back. They used baffle boards made of Celotex (accoustic ceiling tile material) every so often as witnesses to where the bullet was. It narrowed down how much digging they had to do.

There was another where a metal detector was used to locate the bullet, but I don't recall the construction.

Back about 1982 I'd bought a bunch of raw peeler cores to use as fence posts and needed to treat them. My dad worked for a mid sized construction outfit and he supplied a piece of 12" OD schd 40 PVC pipe about 6' long. Something like that would be great for such a thing as a bullet catcher. I had to buy a cap for it and had to go through an irrigation company to get it. Even then it was a bit more then I wanted to spend. I think it was like $22 or some such for the cap.

Anyway, with such a piece of pipe you could use a sawzall (walls were like 1/2" thick) to cut out lozenge shaped pieces maybe 6" wide every so often along the top. This would leave strengthening strips across the top. While the whole piece of pipe was hefty, it wasn't a killer to move around. Of course it was empty . However it would be clean and free of splinters and sharp corners. It would require no construction or maintenance and would not be subject to deterioration. Since it can withstand several hundred pounds per sq inch I'd think it would be the bees knees for a bullet collection container regardless the medium used inside.

................Buckshot

[Cayoot]

That's a great idea Buckshot! I think I'm going to have to try something like that next spring!

[BruceB]

Cayoot;

I have some 358156 bullets here for you, but have been unable to make contact with you. Send me a PM with your address and I'll ship them forthwith. I was unable to post on the S&W forum, so this is "where it's at".

[Cayoot]

Thanks Bruce! I really appreciate that!

PM sent

[BruceB]

Gents;

The Box is salvageable, I think. The 1x2 stringers came to no harm, but I'll back them up with 2x4 on the outside of the box, as well as adding 3/4" plywood as a new bottom for the assembly. The plywood in this case was actually torn off the screws which held it to the 1x2 framing!

The rice slurry will work OK, apparently, and I suspect it won't need anywhere near five feet of the stuff to stop bullets. I'll stick with that length for now, until I get a real firing test with the big guns. If the rice comes from the same supplier, I'll use 100 pounds the next time. Maybe applying some heat as it's soaking will help, as suggested earlier on this thread.

The 1/4" rubber sheet which seals the shooting end of the box only shows a minor mark about 1/16" in diameter where the bullet passed through (not a hole), so it should do fine. I'm thinking now that an open-work lumber frame lined with this tough rubber would make a primo recovery box...that is, the rubber sheeting would be attached to the inside of the wood frame WITHOUT any plywood or similar 'skin' between the wood formers, and the rubber would be free to expand and contract with pressure waves. I wonder where this stuff comes from...have to do some research at the mine.

Hmmmm.

[montana_charlie]

I'm thinking now that an open-work lumber frame lined with this tough rubber would make a primo recovery box...

Agreed...

[versifier]

BruceB,
I got to thinking about the idea of cardboard partitions to track the boolit as it passed through the medium. Cardboard was dismissed right away as it is far from waterproof. BUT, produce boxes are made of waxed waterproof cardboard and might serve the additional duty of keeping the slurry from all flowing out of most sections if the containment box again suffers from hydrostatic trauma. Sheets of Tyvek might do an even better job for tracking, but they would lack the stiffness of the waxed cardboard and could be a PITA to properly position.

I wonder also if the box needs to have a top on it? Water filled milk jug tests work better if the tops are left off of them, but that might not hold true for the plywood box. Just a thought.

[oso]

...I wonder also if the box needs to have a top on it? Water filled milk jug tests work better if the tops are left off of them, but that might not hold true for the plywood box. Just a thought.

That's what i was wondering - would a higher side be enough to retain the splash (is it like water boiling in a pot?) rather than a lid that might direct the splash out. So what happened with the top action on that first shot?

[BD]

I just want to say that I think it's a real shame that this event wasn't recorded for posterity

BD