Automated Master Caster

[Tazza]

Yeah, i understand that too. The sorts part is when you need to rely on someone else to get something done, being power you need an electrician to do it. With the horrible weather you guys are having, i'm sure not a lot of people are really in the mood to dig a trench and lay new copper.

Stay warm!

[Frozone]

I was ruminating on this tonite ( slow sermon from the pulpit, and this keeps me from snoring)

I believe it was hagel who ask me about reading mold temps.
I provided a chip that would do that and easily interface with the microcontroller that does the automation.

I then got to thinking about current attempts to automate. and those have an adjustable times for pour and cool. right?

Well, with an instrumented mold the cool time can be PID controlled to adjust cycle time to maximums.
The pour/wait time could also be adjusted to add/lessen the heat put into the mold.

Now, this May not be a shock to those that asked about the chip, but if you hadn't considered the possibility, I have a few extra ideas also.

[HATCH]

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the commercial casting machines factor in mold temp in casting. They use a set of semi-fixed timers.
I have thought about adding a temp sensor to the mold and adjusting the cycle to keep the mold on the sweet spot but I haven't found the need.
With the basic unmodified plc program I have cast 115 gr 9mm and 250 gr 45 colts. Using the same timing (with the exception of lead pour)

[Tazza]

I'm just wondering how long a temperature sensor would last from the impact when the mold hits the end of the stroke to knock the projectiles out. It is a good idea, it would automatically compensate for hotter weather, but turning a knob to adjust it seems to work too.

I'd like to hear how a sensor on the mold worked out, especially for it's life span.

I too was under the impression the commercial machines were just set and forget, no automatic adjustments with respect to mold temperature.

[ProfGAB101]

Hatch your pearls of hard won wisdom are always appreciated. It's good to see that you appreciate some of my reasons for going with the automated MCs. Yes, you are right about the dollars invested vs. production with the bullet master. It is the flexibility and the fact that I can have one machine down for whatever reason while the others are chugging along and casting a variety of bullets that I find attractive. I also agree with you on the batching. I hope to set my three MCs up to throw around 504 bullets and then stop and wait for me to change out the bullet catching trays. That way I can pull a few sample to inspect, get a good average weight (I'll tare the trays before starting to fill them and wright the tare weight on a piece of masking tape on the tray - then just do the math) and know that I'm putting 500+ bullets in a box without any counting.

I also agree that the lubing/sizing will be the bottle neck in this plan. That is why I figured on getting the collimator to go with the Starr. I can just dump them in and let it rip while I'm setting up boxes, doing paperwork and shuffling lead into the MCs.

Well, at least that's the plan. Hopefully reality won't bitch slap me too hard on that one.

I would still like to hear from anyone else out there who is running one of the collimators from Magma. Especially someone who bought theirs in the last few years and before I place the order for one. My hope is that they have improved the reliability. In any case it would be good to know what to expect. If the clutches are still the weak link then maybe I could keep a few spare parts on hand and learn how to rebuild them myself.

Time to burst a few bubbles and set rational expectations:

#1 - a less than 1% failure rate on small batches isn't going to happen. ANY break in the workflow which disrupts the pace will likely cause a few failures. Even running 100% factory allowed ingots will sometimes introduce dirt/dust etc. into your pot. It just happens.

You will need something like a 2' x 3' short nap carpeted table top with a low hanging bright light to roll the as cast bullets on for visual inspection prior to lube & sizing. I knew of 3 casting companies that used this method and a forth that hand inspected each bullet as the tubed them up for the luber. BTW those MA Systems collators make a whole lot of noise when you have 3 running in one room at the same time. The same inspection table works for final product inspection assuming your running harder non-sticky lubes.

One table I saw (3' x 6') had the raw (un-inspected) side painted RED and the PASSED side painted light blue and in the corner of the un-inspected side was a 8" funnel which was used to drop the rejects into a catch coffee can. Nothing was ever placed on the table unless ready for inspection and never on the blue side. I mentioned that the table took up alot of floor space for a surface that is only used for inspection. The owner told me it saved him a small fortune in business insurance because its use showed exercised due diligence on quality control.

#2 - As to counting by weight - errors waiting to happen, again and again. Get some 1" board, drill a 10 x10 grid of 1/2" holes 1/2" or so deep. These almost auto fill by pouring a handfull of slugs on top and spread them around. 5 plates and you have a perfect visual count of 500 ready to box. These boards will work for 30 cal to 46 cal (likely more than 95% of your production). Another board with 3/8" holes will handle the sub 30 cal unless your going to try doing .177" So when you are tired and feeling overworked this saves you from making mistakes.

RE - collators - if you can get a hornady or RCBS to feed un-lubed bullets that would be a cheap and simple way to use one collator to tube up bullets for several lube sizers.

This IS a hands on operation even when automated, as one guy put it, you never go farther away from the machine than you can with 100% accuracy throw your keys and hit the Big Red ESTOP. As for paperwork, that is done at the begining and end of shift while its quiet and the machines are either heating up, or cooling down.

[HATCH]

I don't cast commercially but for myself I know that the boolits gets inspected two to three times prior to being loaded.
I inspect them after they are cast and hey go in a coffee can.
Then they get inspected when I load them into the tubes for sizing.
Then lastly they get inspected when I load them.
Even with physically touching and ooking at them three times I still get a bad boolit in a loaded round.
IMHO, its too late to get into the commercial casting business.

[Tazza]

There are always some that will get through that aren't quite rite. I know I get the odd one or two that get through the coating and sizing, but it is rare. I coat mine with a teflon type coating and spin the excess off. One or two stick, they get re-melted later

[hagel]

OK, couple of things to throw out there:

1. The ME students postulate that running the MC at a rate that maintains ideal mold temp is the way to go. They are basing their whole approach on this idea. To that end the have secured an industrial thermocouple and modified a mold (I think they modded the 45 cal mold I gave them) to attach said thermocouple to.

So, any day now, we should have some proof as to whether this idea works or not. Of course, we may inadvertently discover that the thermocouple may not survive the end of stroke whacking it will be subjected to. In either case I assure you that I will post the results. In the case that it works I will also post a video of it doing so.

Now Hatch, just to hedge my bets I had them set up the PLC so that I can switch back and forth from the "Temp driven" approach to the original program from 45nut. I am seriously rooting for the ME team but I also know that you have ample proof that the "timed " approach works.

2. As for bullet inspection I just finished putting the wheels on a long table for that purpose. Thanks ProfGAB101 for the tip on the carpet though. I really hadn't figured out how I was going to keep them from rolling off onto the floor.

Once again, I want to thank all of you for taking the time to impart a little knowledge on me. I can use all of it I can get.

[Tazza]

The thermocouple i installed in my MC pot was the type you thread a hole and screw the tip in, if they used the same idea, i wonder if installing two of these thermocouples into the mold, maybe one per side so that if one was to fail, it could notify you of the failure so you can swap it out. The one i got was pretty cheap from china, it was bought to match the PID i also bought to control the pot.

It is an interesting concept, and takes out a lot of the guess work. The thing that may be the hard part is getting the 'set' point of the lead rite. Different batches may have different melting points, i don't know how much that may vary, but it's possible it's enough to be an issue.

I know that when i was trying to cast a little too fast, the sprue was still slightly wet, or wet enough so when it was cut, it would brush slightly molten lead across the top of the mold surface and create two lines of lead stuck to it. This would eventually push the sprue out from the mold creating a ugly bump on the base of the projectile. This did take quite a few drops for this to build up enough, but once it was built up, you needed to stop and scrape the excess off.

What sort of lead will you be using? if it's blended the same way every time, this will not be an issue, but if you use different blends and just keep the hardness up, you may need to keep a close eye on solidifying points of each batch you get.

[hagel]

The thermocouple i installed in my MC pot was the type you thread a hole and screw the tip in, if they used the same idea, i wonder if installing two of these thermocouples into the mold, maybe one per side so that if one was to fail, it could notify you of the failure so you can swap it out. The one i got was pretty cheap from china, it was bought to match the PID i also bought to control the pot.

It is an interesting concept, and takes out a lot of the guess work. The thing that may be the hard part is getting the 'set' point of the lead rite. Different batches may have different melting points, i don't know how much that may vary, but it's possible it's enough to be an issue.

I know that when i was trying to cast a little too fast, the sprue was still slightly wet, or wet enough so when it was cut, it would brush slightly molten lead across the top of the mold surface and create two lines of lead stuck to it. This would eventually push the sprue out from the mold creating a ugly bump on the base of the projectile. This did take quite a few drops for this to build up enough, but once it was built up, you needed to stop and scrape the excess off.

What sort of lead will you be using? if it's blended the same way every time, this will not be an issue, but if you use different blends and just keep the hardness up, you may need to keep a close eye on solidifying points of each batch you get.

The plan right now is to purchase my alloy from Victory White Metals. They have a pretty good reputation for quality and consistency. They supply their bullet alloys in 8 lb ingots which, according to Paul at VIctory, are a good fit for the MCs pots. Don't know about that and I won't until I try it. It seems to me that tossing 8 lbs into a half empty pot will drop the temp too much. I'll just have to work that out. It could be that I'll add an ingot to the pot after running three 500 bullet batches and wait for the temp to stabilize before starting back up. Of course, there really isn't much sense in wasting time speculating on how this will work. Once I have a machine working I'll just have to try it and see what actually works.

In the long term I am thinking of casting the alloy into long relatively thin rods and feeding those into the pot. That might alloy for a more consistent pot temp. Once again, I'll just have to try it and find out.

Seriously, I'm getting pretty tired of speculating. Can't wait to get everything set up and start the long process of learning from actual experience.

[Tazza]

I can tell you are eager to get casting rather than sitting back hoping it will work as well as you plan it does. I'm in the same boat, my time is seriously lacking, i have a MC that is part way done, i just want to get time to actually get it finished so i can see it working, or do do what is needed to make it function.

As for the 8 lb ingots, what i did when i was casting with my lee 6 banger and a lee bottom pour pot was to sit an ingot on the edge of the pot so it more or less pre-heats it without effecting the lead temperature. You'd be surprised just how much of a difference it makes, it doesn't take too long to get pretty hot. When you want it, just use pliers and it melts pretty fast when in the pot. You can actually stack a few around the top, but i guess the vibrations from it running may bounce hen around a little, i guess you will need to play with that.

[landers]

It seems to me that tossing 8 lbs into a half empty pot will drop the temp too much.
In the long term I am thinking of casting the alloy into long relatively thin rods and feeding those into the pot. That might alloy for a more consistent pot temp. Once again, I'll just have to try it and find out.
.

Hagel,
when I add a 5lbs ingot I get about a 30 deg. drop in my pot temperature using the Magma PID, this is with a casting temp of 700. I have found that keeping the pot continuously full, 5lbs at a time, keeps the head pressure the same allowing for more consistent pours and better bullets.

Landers

[Tazza]

I found that helped too, the more metal you have melted already holds more heat. I found that i needed to add quite a few ingots before my melt froze, but they were only 1lb ingots.

I like your idea of keeping the level the same to keep the pressure the same, that was actually one of my thoughts, as the lead level drops, the lead pour time may need to be increased to fully fill out the mould.

[wv109323]

I would use a second pot to melt lead in then ladle or gravity feed the melted lead into my main pot. Adding lead into the main pot will lead to large temp. variations.

[Tazza]

I believe that is how the bullet master does it. It has essentially two pots. There was a post i saw a few days ago saying it had like a float to let more lead into the main pot when it lowers to set point to keep the levels constant, or close to it.

[hagel]

Paul from Victory white Metals called today and we discussed several things. The most important probably was strategies for getting the alloy I need at a price I can work with. One of the other things we talked about was how one of his customers has rigged up a way to suspend ingots over his pot and slowly lower them into the pot using the level in the pot as the controlling parameter.

Interesting concept. Uses the waste heat coming off the top of your melt to preheat the solid alloy and adds it as needed. Well, you can bet your *** I'll be tracking that guy down. I'll let the rest of you in on what I find out.

[Tazza]

I like that idea, the heat would normally be wasted, why not put it to good use. I'm wondering how it works with the level, i'm going to keep my eyes peeled for this one

[kayak1]

Pictures exist of this with people lowering the 60lb blocks into the bigger casting machines with chain host/gantry.

[HATCH]

If your paying more then $1.15 a pound shipped then your ur paying too much

[ProfGAB101]

Wonder if there is a non-contact way of gaging temp like an IR sensor that could read the mold while its in the top (fill) position. Or a thermistor like they use for Rep-Rap printers might be able to be potted in the mold mount so you would read the temp between the cavities on the back side of the mold where the cross section would be thinnest.

I have an Aluminum .460" 2 cavity mold by Accurate Molds in my MC at the moment and the heat properties are far different than the molds provided by Magma.