Remington 1911 R1 carry condition

[pastor]

great discussion, not sure where i fall, i have carried mine both condition 1 and condition 3, i am no expert and i dont claim to have an answer, i do know that i feel more comfortable carrying with empty chamber hammer down with a full mag, but i acknowledge that it would be faster in a personal defense situation to have the gun C&L i hope there are more opinion's this is an important and interesting topic

[pastor]

good discission,

[TNFrank]

For carry it's going to be Cocked n' Locked but when it's in the drawer by my bedside it's Condition 2. Been doing it that way for years and years and years without a single mishap, don't care what anyone else has to say on the matter, been beat up enough over C2 on a lot of other web sites but it's worked for me for over 30 years and will continue to work for me for another 30 years if I have the gun for that long.

[NickSS]

I know nothing of what the army did for safety but I do know what the Navy and Marines did at every base I was at when the 1911 was the current service pistol. The guards always carried the guns in a flap holster with a loaded mag and no round in the chamber. I watched the marines many times during guard change at their barracks and it was always the same drill. They would remove the pistol from the holster. Pull the slide to the rear and let it go forward. Then on command they would all point the pistol at a 45 degree angle and dry fire it. Then they took a loaded mag out and inserted it in the butt and holstered the weapon. Comming off guard the marines would eject the mag, pull the slide and dry fire the weapon. Holster and proceed into the barracks. I watched this routine from my office window hundreds of times for over four years and it never varied at all. The sailors who stood guard at the gangway to ships did the same thing.

[Rick Hodges]

1971 US Army MP school. Weapon was carried with 5 rounds in the magazine, empty chamber and hammer down. "Unless action was imminent". While doing white hat duty at Fort Gordon intel got word of anti-war activists planning to raid remote company armories. We were then instructed to carry the .45's cocked and locked, 8rds. in weapon and 7rds. in spare magazine. We were also issued a M-16 and three magazines w/18 rds. each.

In truth, after guard mount, most loaded magazines fully and went to condition 2. Our Officers and NCO's just looked the other way. Some higher ofc's and officials were still queasy about all those cocked .45's even when in a flapped holster. There is a right way, a wrong way and the Army way!

Rick

[pdawg_shooter]

Condition 1, the way John Moses Browning designed it to be carried.

[MtGun44]

"I believe locked and cocked to be a civilian affectation" -

I suggest you read the original 1911 testing report. The Army REQUIRED that the guns be
tested for safety in a condition that they can be picked up and fired WITHOUT THE
MANIPULATION OF ANY PART BUT THE TRIGGER. They were loaded, hammer back and
THUMB SAFETY OFF! The design passed all drop and other safety tests in this condition.
With the grip safety doing the primary safety job, and it worked perfectly.

Condition 1 is safer than the military required testing.

Later military leaders, primarily interested in peacetime situations, usually had the gun
completely unloaded. Various other oddball conditions were imposed by ill informed
small unit military commander. Their word was law, but they usually didn't know a darned
thing about pistols.

I would suggest that the "civilians" that you deride are actually ex-military men who spent
decades studying the issues of safety and ready use of the 1911 design for self defense
by civilians and have carefully selected Condition 1 as the best.

I have participated in and observed shooting 1911s from Condition 1 for well over 3 decades
in competition with COMPLETE safety. Those that fear Condition 1 are uninformed.

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun, somehow you think I am "deriding civilians" and you seem upset about it. I actually am not and did not mean to if that is how it seemed. Your comment about safety in drop testing isn't the same issue and is not the point I was making. I need to clarify a bit.

I don't fear Condition 1 in the least. I think some of my terminology was not well defined; I meant "affectation" as a synonym for "mannerism" but didn't mean to imply any fakery about it. My choice of words was unfortunate, I think. If I carry a 1911, I carry it cocked and locked......but I have no doubt civilians advocated this mode of carry far, far more often than the Army did. The immediacy of use for a pistol is different for a civilian than an enlisted man, in most cases. This probably influenced thinking in that regard.

The report you cite doesn't change my opinion and seems somewhat off topic. The Army, as an institution, is much more comfortable with an empty chamber. That they tested other methods for safety is undoubted; but it took civilian usage to make "cocked and locked" the norm. So I am crediting civilians for popularizing this mode of carry, not criticizing them. I have no doubt the gun is drop safe in its original configuration, and I prefer Series 70 type pistols myself, but that's off topic as well.

[SMCCORD]

"Get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get your self a Glock" -- Tommy Lee Jones

But seriously, cocked and locked.

[MtGun44]

35 Rem,

Sorry!

To me "affectation" implies silly, effete action without real need, just for show or
due to lack of understanding. I understood it as an intentional slur against this
practice.

You are exactly right that a civilian is more likely to need it instantly than a soldier,
the point of Cond One vs safer carry for non-critical situations.

Again - I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. We are at least 90% in agreement!

My point on the Army safety testing was to validate that Cond One isn't unsafe, which
is the common thread in many "anti-Condition One" arguments.

Also - I failed to note the name of the poster! I know you to be highly knowledgeable
about the 1911, so would have perhaps had a different take on the comments had
I considered my additional knowledge about the poster.

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun, your irritation had good foundation and it was my error in terminology. My phrasing was bad, and I forgot the negative connection that is often associated with the word.

Anyway, we are indeed in agreement, and finding myself at odds with you was not something I often experience about this kind of topic. Hasn't happened before, and the reason was an error on my part. Sorry about that.

[gandydancer]

Cylinder & slide safety fast system on my 1911 round in chamber and hammer down and safety on. release safety & hammer cocks automatically. works for me GD

Cylinder & Slide Inc

C&S Custom Handguns | SFS - Safety Fast Shooting System |

[MtGun44]

35Rem - glad to not be in disagreement with you! Besides, I recently bought a
Marlin in "your" caliber, and now have something else in common besides respect
for the 1911.

"Safety fast" works, but is really unnecesary. I believe this was copied from the
Browning HP 'Safety Fast' prototype for the US Army trials to replace the 1911. I handled this
prototype at the 1980 NRA show, and it worked fine.

However, if one is unconvinced on Condition One carry, "Safety Fast" is a viable alternative.

Bill

[Rick Hodges]

Lest I be branded as one opposed to condition 1 I would like to mention that I carried a Series 70 Government Model cocked and locked in either a ******* Shoulder Rig or a more conventional Don Hume strong side holster with leather under the hammer for some 4 1/2 yrs. while working plainclothes. This all came to a crashing end when a fellow officer blew a hole through and through one cheek of his a$$ with a Colt Commander that he carried on half cock in the small of his back.

Our Chief in his own remarkable way of over reacting banned single action weapons for on or off duty carry. (This was a couple of years prior to his changing the whole department over to those miserable Glocks....carried cocked and not locked...but you just can't see the hammer). Like most things the decisions seem to be made by those without the experience/expertise/ for those whose butts are on the line.

[August]

Nothing against the condition 1 argument.

However, the 1912 U.S. Army training manuals caution that the gun is NOT to be carried with the hammer cocked and safety locked.

I'm guessing there were some "incidents" during the first year of adoption that result in this advise.

Since there are several ways that things can go wrong with a cocked and locked pistol, or even one in condition 2, it is probably -- over the long run-- ill advised. That certainly was the U.S. Army's conclusion.

Glocks are nice.

[Judan_454]

The Remington 1911 r1 has a series 80 safety is this safe to carry in condition 2 ?

[gandydancer]

35Rem - glad to not be in disagreement with you! Besides, I recently bought a
Marlin in "your" caliber, and now have something else in common besides respect
for the 1911.

"Safety fast" works, but is really unnecesary. I believe this was copied from the
Browning HP 'Safety Fast' prototype for the US Army trials to replace the 1911. I handled this
prototype at the 1980 NRA show, and it worked fine.

However, if one is unconvinced on Condition One carry, "Safety Fast" is a viable alternative.

Bill

I carried a 1911 colt series 70 in a shoulder rig cocked and locked for a few years in the eighty's and never through much about it until one night I sat in a booth in a diner eating dinner and sitting right behind me in line with the barrel of my 1911 was a five year old little girl. Knowing that barrel with a round in the chamber was pointed at the little girls back made feel so uneasy I could not eat..I got up and went to the men's room and removed the round from the chamber. put the pistol back in leather cocked & locked and went back to eat. and have never carried one in a shoulder rig again. even with a SFS. GD

[MtGun44]

This is why I am totally unwilling to use ANY horizontal carry shoulder holster. Up or down
are safe most of the time, but IMO ALL horizontal carry holsters are fundamentally and
unacceptably unsafe with any gun, regardless.

First rule of gun safety (never point) is almost continuously in violation with these holsters.

Unacceptable, IMO.

They are banned in IPSC competition for this reason.

Bill