500 S&W water test

[7br]

Our snipers shoot SMK bullets and they expand and or fragment in flesh so there is no connection there

If you mean Sierra Match King bullets, you will notice that Sierra does not recommend them for hunting.

[jwp475]

I am tracking on identical projectiles with different velocities.

You are assuming that the bullets have the same orientation going through the animal which may not be the case. If the lower velocity bullet is going sideways through the animal, you may had increased the effective meplat by about 50% . IE, Exactly my point.

Another way to put it, which would cause more damage, an expanding bullet of the exact same weight and velocity or an non expanding bullet.

Couple of things to consider, the bullets exit the animal meaning that there is remaining energy and momentum.

I Am assuming a properly stabilized bullet with a proper nose shape and meplat which will track straight and not tumble if a bullet tumbles penetration is very [poor and the direction the bullet takes is anyone's guess, not a good thing

We are talking about 2 bullets of identical shape and material in this thread. If ones uses a Punch Bullet one at 1350 FPS and the other at 1650 FPS the faster bullet has more momentum to transfer, will produce more hydraulic pressure and has more direct applied pressure. The faster bullet will impact with more force and the target will Punch back with more force, thus more momentum will transfer and the added hydraulic pressure will produce more wound trauma

Guys this ain't that hard, Duncan MAcPherson lays it out perfectly in this book

[Whitworth]

If you mean Sierra Match King bullets, you will notice that Sierra does not recommend them for hunting.

But great for hunting terrorists!

[jwp475]

If you mean Sierra Match King bullets, you will notice that Sierra does not recommend them for hunting.

Yes, I do mean Sierra Match Kings. Sierra will never ever recommend them for hunting as long as the Military snipers are using them.

Do you want me to post the JAG ruling on the use of these bullets? The ruling readily admits that they expand and or fragment in tissue

I know this to be true because I have actually used the SMK to kill game and they doe expand/ fragment in tissue as I have seen first hand. Would you like to see pictures?

[Frank]

What if it goes through skin, muscle, bones, air, more muscle, skin? It needs liquid to make hydraulic. Right?

[jwp475]

What if it goes through skin, muscle, bones, air, more muscle, skin? It needs liquid to make hydraulic. Right?

Tissue such as muscle is a soft solid and there is plenty of liquid such as blood in the tissue. The hydraulic pressure is why a small caliber rifle bullet can in flick a large diameter wound. Also the reason that a 22-250 can blow a ground squirrel into small bits and pieces

[waksupi]

I'm not sure that this would even be related, but for some reason the term dwell time is in the back of my mind, in regards to slower bullets. I know it's a factor shooting steel, but would it relate to killing power?

[7br]

Hmm, I have been using SMK's since the 90's and as far as I know, they have never recommended them for hunting except for fur harvesting.

Now, properly stabilized bullets in the air does not mean they will be properly stabilized in flesh. It also does not mean they will be stabilized for all velocities. Loads that are extremely accurate at 25 yards can go to pot at 100 yards. ( conversely, over stabilized rounds can shoot tighter groups at longer ranges due to precession) I would also guess that a heavy bullet headed thataway is going to keep heading thataway whether it is tumbling or not. (Absent of hitting a bone, of course) Think about throwing a glass bottle. It is tumbling, but still is does not mystically wander around.

Look at the bullets on the cover of the book. The diameter to width ratio is a lot higher than the diameter to width ratio of 44man's hunting bullets. The hunting bullets will need to have either a faster twist rate or will need to be pushed faster to have the same amount of stabilization as the defensive bullets.

Frank does bring up a good point. A good chest shot will penetrate about 2 inches of meat and bone and about 10 inches of air filled lungs. Not sure where that leaves the hydraulic pressure. Really isn't much mass to react to KE or momentum either.

I seem to remember an article about a couple of ballistics experts that claimed that Billy Dixon's shot at adobe wells was impossible. A couple of long range BPCR shooters took them to tasked and empirically proved that it was possible.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-464078.html

[jwp475]

As I posted above I have shot enough bullets into game and media to understand what stabilizes a bullet in tissue and media as well as air. As I posted above a properly stabilized bullet with a proper nose shape and meplat will stay point forward as it penetrates and will be found point forward most of the time

[jwp475]

Hmm, I have been using SMK's since the 90's and as far as I know, they have never recommended them for hunting except for fur harvesting.

Now, properly stabilized bullets in the air does not mean they will be properly stabilized in flesh. It also does not mean they will be stabilized for all velocities. Loads that are extremely accurate at 25 yards can go to pot at 100 yards. ( conversely, over stabilized rounds can shoot tighter groups at longer ranges due to precession) I would also guess that a heavy bullet headed thataway is going to keep heading thataway whether it is tumbling or not. (Absent of hitting a bone, of course) Think about throwing a glass bottle. It is tumbling, but still is does not mystically wander around.

Look at the bullets on the cover of the book. The diameter to width ratio is a lot higher than the diameter to width ratio of 44man's hunting bullets. The hunting bullets will need to have either a faster twist rate or will need to be pushed faster to have the same amount of stabilization as the defensive bullets.

Frank does bring up a good point. A good chest shot will penetrate about 2 inches of meat and bone and about 10 inches of air filled lungs. Not sure where that leaves the hydraulic pressure. Really isn't much mass to react to KE or momentum either.

I seem to remember an article about a couple of ballistics experts that claimed that Billy Dixon's shot at adobe wells was impossible. A couple of long range BPCR shooters took them to tasked and empirically proved that it was possible.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-464078.html

As I posted above Sierra has never and will never recommend the SMK's for hunting as long as the military is using them as that is part of the JAG ruling that determined them to be a FMJ as far as the military is concerned

The lungs contain blood and are disrupted violently when a bullet passes through them, blood is about 90% water which is not compressible

Again, if the bullet is properly stabilized from the twist and is of of a proper shape and meplat then the bullet will penetrate STRAIGHT and will be found point forward most of the time IME in the 90 percentile range

[subsonic]

Just to yank this thread further off course, one of my other gun afflictions is precision rifle. I have seen both gellatin and wet paper testing of the 175 and 168 SMK. Depending mostly on the condition and dimensions of the tiny hollow point on these the can either pencil through deeply and then flip or flip soon after entry. They do not "expand" like a hunting bullet, but rather flip, bend, break and come apart like the common military FMJ.

[44man]

I get straight penetration with all calibers, the flat meplat is great. Only several things have changed that. My friend had two gut shot deer with the LBT 320 gr WLN from his .44. Both were hit in the shoulder broadside. Both boolits turned and were found in the hams. Both had wiped noses on one side.
Then I shot a large doe broadside this season with my 330 gr, 22 BHN boolit. Behind the shoulder and the boolit exited in front of the ham. It missed all of the guts and the exit hole was round and boolit size. I can't make anything of it and do not think the boolit turned. All I remember was the deer leaped hard at impact. Was the boolit going straight and she actually moved enough to alter the course of the boolit, like jumping through the boolit path? How did it miss the guts, the deer was clean inside? Lungs were destroyed only.
Veral Smith also does not agree with me. Then I went to his book and see the velocity I am using needs a 16 BHN boolit for hunting.
Well, I use 22 BHN for the accuracy. That is what everyone misses. His BHN recommendations means boolit upset, mine do not upset. Everything in his book says expansion without boolits breaking from being too hard. Mine don't break but do not expand. He has a list of BHN for each velocity that I agree with but soft takes away my accuracy. Yet changing the alloy turns the 45-70 into a meat grinder.
Do I have a "dead spot" with hardness and velocity? I think so. If I took it to 2000 fps I am sure it would become destructive the same as taking it down to 1300 fps.
I shoot too many deer with all kinds of revolvers to accept the poor performance of hard lead in the 45-70 BFR. It will get expansion or I will not shoot deer with it. I shot 5 this season but left the 45-70 at home.
Break both shoulders which I hate because that is good meat or hit the spine every time, you need not apply. I talk soft tissue damage.
A deer shot behind the shoulder with the .44, .45, .475, or .500 JRH are rendered DEAD right quick using a 22 BHN boolit.

[saz]

Just to yank this thread further off course, one of my other gun afflictions is precision rifle. I have seen both gellatin and wet paper testing of the 175 and 168 SMK. Depending mostly on the condition and dimensions of the tiny hollow point on these the can either pencil through deeply and then flip or flip soon after entry. They do not "expand" like a hunting bullet, but rather flip, bend, break and come apart like the common military FMJ.

I did a test a few years ago with my 35 whelen and barnes TSX's. I wanted to test the penetration of those compared to other "premium" bullets. The TSX is an EXCELLENT hunting bullet (not as good as cast though) and the weight retention and penetration is great. Now, if you are not familiar with the TSX, there is a very small hollow point that initiates expansion. I wanted to see what would happen if the small HP was pinched closed, say if the cartridge was dropped etc. It acted just like a FMJ and put pencil holes through my wet phone books, but went straight through. I am guessing it was because the bullet was hitting perpindicular to the target, so no slight "deflection" upon impact.

[warf73]

44man I just seen what the problem is

Break both shoulders which I hate because that is good meat

your deer up north are to big meat wise lol.
That shoulder meat down here is turned into burger so even if you blood shot a 3" circle on both sides you might loose 1lb of ground meat. Not much of a loss considering the deer is within feet of were you shot it.

[44man]

44man I just seen what the problem is your deer up north are to big meat wise lol.
That shoulder meat down here is turned into burger so even if you blood shot a 3" circle on both sides you might loose 1lb of ground meat. Not much of a loss considering the deer is within feet of were you shot it.

I know but I turn the whole shoulder into BBQ or roast it. I think it is better meat then the hams.
One deer hit in the shoulder this season was bad and when skinning, I finished cutting half the shoulder off with the skin.
Another had shoulder and leg bones falling out as I skinned, The meat left was shot full of bone pieces.
I have a problem with grinding meat long before it gets put in the grinder!

[reader]

I bought the MacPherson's Bullet Penetration book. In fact by jwp475's recommendation here. Thanks!

MacPherson describes anomalous data with SWC bullets p. 186-193. The penetration suddenly increased anomalously after certain higher velocity threshold (e.g. 1500 fps). In addition, wound tracks were completely straight in gelatin and usual extended fracture cracks resulting from temporary cavity were missing. MacPherson states: "This confirms the low value of CDC [drag coefficient] suggested by the high penetration depths of these wound tracks". He explains this phenomen with lower bullet drag [after the higher velocity threshold] and with small differences of stability and angle of attack. He ignores these configurations from his penetration model and says high velocity SWCs have no practical use or are not effective in creating WTI [wound trauma incapacitation].

Could this data relate to the experience by 44man with the .45-70 loads? When the penetration suddenly significantly increases in regard to velocity, this would indicate less resistance. At least, this would work in the same direction 44man saw it. Any further reference about the matter would be interesting if available.

[44man]

sounds like incorrect conclusion based on small sample. no support from science on this theory. the boolit doesn't stop making damage because it is running more than 1300. strange theory 44man!

Many deer, not a small sample. I went to a softer boolit and cured it.

[MaxEnergy]

Many deer, not a small sample. I went to a softer boolit and cured it.

somewhere else you posted 7 deer -- a small sample

[MaxEnergy]

I have shot 7 deer with this gun and hard boolits, lost 2 and none of the rest went less then 200 yards. Only a softer boolit put the rest shot with it down fast.

in your own words.

[Bwana]

44man writes:

"Not tracking is from a loss of stability with the rate of twist.
A lot of our military guns are now very fast twists so bullets tumble in humans to get around expanding bullet restrictions."

Really? That's not my understanding of the situation. Of course things may be different in 44man's world. Where's that popcorn?