Introduction

[GerryM]

Compairing notes Great"'
One die make claimed that the shape of the core didn't make any differance.
I won't argue the point because it would take extensive testing and in a tunnel.
The ideal shape in My opinion is one that has a taper like the inside of the jacket. the core must also be small enough in diameter to go all the way to the bottom of the jacket before any pressure is applied. This should help or eliminate trapped air under the core.
Dick Maretzo hase been xraying bullets. He has found trapped air pockets in several of the comercial bullet makes products.
Dies? Heres what I have 2 sets of B&A one 6mm one 224. I set of Pindell dies 6mm and one point closure die. One set of detsch 224 dies, two sets of Detsch 30 cal dies 7 1/2 og and 8 og. LONG I set of Bob Simonson dies 6mm 7 1/2 og two sets of Detsch 6mm dies {long}
8 og and 10 OG. I also have a set of other dies that are made by a famous shooter die maker. They are the upside down type like Blackmoun but higher quality.
That set makes heavy bullets from 150 gr to 220 gr on long sierra jackets Bt and flat base.
I also have a set Of Corbin Dies that I bought as a learning tool. They are 6 og.
I set my dies up on three different presses {with ejectors}. I also have a CH core cutter that works great The model 30.
If you ever see one around let me knnow . I have a friend that is going to start in swageing.
Lube is a mix of 7 parts anhydrous lanolin and 1 part vaseline as a carrier.
It comes out thick like vaseline and goes a long long way. I apply with my thumb and forefinger by rolling as i seat cores or point. Carbide dies don't need very much lube. just enough to make them slide a bit. If it point too easy thers too much lube Drag theres too little lube. Yes I do make benchrest bullets for some people usually my close friends
and fellow shooters at my range.

[GerryM]

Thank you for the welcome granpas50AE.
Yes ive noticed other sites' Some are pretty crusty''
I have seen the wealth of information thats shared by all of these nice people.
I also have been swaging since the early seventys. I stopped to do what most people do Raise a family' then jumped back into it as i had time.
Guess i have been lucky . I had good friends and one was a fine machinest and a great asset.
Most of them were older then me and had a great wealth of knowledge from working in defense plants during WW2. Now I have younger friends that are into the modern equipment.
I appreciate all of them.

[BLASTER62]

Welcome G.M there are loads of knowledge I also swage bench rest & junke caes & bullets, You will like it here.

[GerryM]

Thank you for the welcome Blaster62

[martin]

GerryM,
I don’t know what to say other than wow, you must have a great passion for swaging and a lot of shooter friends I am sure that you have a wealth of knowledge to share with others and are a welcome addition.

Of the die sets you have, which produce the best bench rest bullets and why? What criteria in swaged bullets do you think are most important when it comes to benchrest - Square bases, consistent weight, consistent ogives, consistent meplates? Are there certain things you measure and/or sort for - jacket run out, core weight, finished length?

I don’t own any Detsch dies but have used a set that were smoother than anything else I have ever used. The only down side is the cost of the dies is beyond my budget

My lube is a mix of 50/50 Lanolin and Vaseline. Do you think that 7/1 would work better? My application technique is the same as your but I have to be very careful not to get too much on the jacket as it can cause dimples when doing pointing.

What are your views on using molidium disulfite? Do you coat your bullets benchrest bullets or leave them naked? Advantages and disadvantages?

Martin

[BT Sniper]

I agree with the shape of the core you are talking about and potential trapped air. I frequently use cast boolits for cores, mostly pistol bullets nothing match grade yet with riffle bullets, getting closer, but with a recent set of 338 cal dies I found a 7mm cast boolit die worked great for a core. Modified it a bit and it had a great tapper to fit the inside of the jacket I make from 223 brass. Dropped right to teh bootom as you mentioned. I'm happy to get +or- a few tenths on weight with cast boolit cores so I'm happy. Now to see if I can get some accuracy from the bullets.

Makes you wonder why we just don't use a point form die of such for a core swage die?

[GerryM]

Hi Martin " I'll try my best to answer your questions.
Thats a tough question on dies I have to say David Detsch dies as being the smoothest.
They are carbide and internal polish is like glass' I have never seen any one polish a die like david/ The other carbide set is Bob simonsons, They are a close second to davids. The 0thers are tool steel and won't polish as high as the carbide dies. They are very very good though. All of the dies with the exception of the corbins will make benchrest quality bullets.
The big differance is the wearability of the steel dies vs the carbide dies.
The 7 to 1 lube mix is what i use with great success.
Heres the things i strive for in a benchrest bullet Careful adjustment of the point die ,It has to be right on the money, no stove pipes and closed to smallest it can get,
Proper lube not too much or too little.{thats why i use my fingers to apply lube.
core seating make sure to use the maximum pressure without stressing the jacket. I check the lead line at the end of the core for dimention with agood 1/10000 mic. The core seating punch must also be right on dimention. I have sets in 1.5 thous increments. you cant have any bleed back on the core seating punch , and the punch should not scape the walls of the jacket. Core weight is critical I weigh each core that I make before its seated. I only allow 1/10 gr variation by that I mean 1/10th IE 68 gr - 1/10th 67.9 . not over or under this weight, on any given weight , That includes the 30 cals IE 115 or 114,9 grs. Core shape . The core must easily slide to the bottom of the jacket and be on a taper like the jacket,
Molly , we used it and now we don't, molly builds up on itself after a while accuracy will grop. My barrel maker hates it . some guys use a little graphite {lock eaze on a patch with alcohol. Thy say it works even better. Most use nothing at all in the bore, anything else?

[GerryM]

Great idea on a bullet But The" What kind of core seater would you use? That would have to be one beauty to work right and also shape spacific. Bet it would work for some applications.

[DukeInFlorida]

Let's agree that there are a few levels of quality for "swaged bullets"..........

There's the benchrest quality level. There are few players in that level for making die sets. Those dies are never cheap, and you need to be very fussy with cores, seating the cores, swaging, etc. Those swaged bullets are NEVER cheaper than factory bullets. However, they aren't intended to be cheaper than factory bullets. They are intended to be the best bullets that can get fired from a high quality barrel.

Then, there's the plinking quality level. That's where the expectation is that they're only "as good" as a factory bullet, but cheaper, or at least as cheap as a factory bullet. That's where 80% of the people in this forum area are working at.

Finally, there's the "really doesn't matter" area of experimentation level of quality. Mis-shapen bullets.... poor designs... horrible accruracy... there's some of that here also. BUT, there's some things to be learned from some of those experiments. Not that those learning lessons aren't already covered in the writings of some of the well known swagers.

Gerry, I'm not sure that there's a lot of bench rest shooters here, who would be working at the level of quality for the top end die sets. I'd hope that there are.

However, it's not worth any effort to try and argue whether the high end benchrest dies are in the same league as any swaging experiments here. They're not.

Bench rest is bench rest. Plinking is plinking. Cheap and simple experiments are just that.

Perhaps if there is enough interest, the forum owner (45Nut) would consider adding a swage section for the high end benchrest shooters. That could bring in some new forum members, and they could swap ideas, etc, at that level. Benchrest swaging is the upper stratosphere of swaging. Most (all?) of the people shooting at the world class level are using high end swaging dies (above Corbin's level of quality I might suggest) and making their own.

[GerryM]

Duke I have to agree with you as to different levels of quality. with bullet prices going thru the ceiling it really pays to swage your own.
As to quality of dies there is a great differance, but i don't think that with time some of the people here could build benchrest quality dies. Its a matter of tooling and technique.
Some of the ideas I have seen here are top notch . I guess necessity is the mother of invention. The dies I see here can be great learning tool for a lot of people.
I as a swager am looking for the very best bullet that I can get to compete with the big dogs. I started with a set of Corbin dies and took it from there . Carbin dies can be very good or just so so. The ones I have are just that so so ok for hunting and plinking but great for a learning tool.
I wouldn't discourage anyone from buying any of the dies I have seen here nor discourage anyone from trying to make their own dies. It s what ever your bag is.
Plinking is also fun But I like the ultimate accuracy. Have fun plinking I do shooting small holes.

[Utah Shooter]

Welcome Gerry.

I have just been watching the thread here and some darn good information. Nice to see that there are others out there trying to get their bullets to the best they can be.

I would be curious though, (along the lines of the cores that have been discussed) how would anyone here suggest that I get my cores to have a bit of a rounded tip to them? I would like to make sure that no air is in there.

I purchased a squirt die from Lafaun on the site. Love the die gets my cores right on the money, but sometimes does leave a bit of a very thin piece of lead from where the punch is pushing it out as well.

Perhaps if there is enough interest, the forum owner (45Nut) would consider adding a swage section for the high end benchrest shooters. That could bring in some new forum members, and they could swap ideas, etc, at that level. Benchrest swaging is the upper stratosphere of swaging. Most (all?) of the people shooting at the world class level are using high end swaging dies (above Corbin's level of quality I might suggest) and making their own.

I do not think that I am any where near knowing a lot about bench rest projectiles but I think that is a good idea.

[GerryM]

Amen BT" To answer the quetion about rounded core end.
The curve is usually on the ejection punch if its a top die Like the corbin 7/8 14 style.
The knock out pin is concave
Just have some one or your self take that part out and cut or mill that out.
I bet anyone here makeing dies can do that for you.
Same with a Boat tail. If you wanted Boat tail bullets it's made in the punch {core seater}
You have a matching bottom punch made for your point die. cool huh?

[Reload3006]

Amen BT" To answer the quetion about rounded core end.
The curve is usually on the ejection punch if its a top die Like the corbin 7/8 14 style.
The knock out pin is concave
Just have some one or your self take that part out and cut or mill that out.
I bet anyone here makeing dies can do that for you.
Same with a Boat tail. If you wanted Boat tail bullets it's made in the punch {core seater}
You have a matching bottom punch made for your point die. cool huh?

I wonder if perhaps a small bleed hole .005 or less in the base of the jacket would be more effective than a shaped core to dispose of and prevent trapped air pockets than the core being shaped to the bottom of the jacket?

[BT Sniper]

I thought my comment (original post #32) might have been able to be taken wrong so I deleted it. But basicaly I said the only thing that sepperates shooters is the size of the group. So even someone that might not think they have as much knoledge as the next guy can have a good day!

[Utah Shooter]

I thought my comment (original post #32) might have been able to be taken wrong so I deleted it. But basicaly I said the only thing that sepperates shooters is the size of the group. So even someone that might not think they have as much knoledge as the next guy can have a good day!

I was wondering where that went. Not taken wrong at all.

[BT Sniper]

Cool!

Bt

[GerryM]

Reloader that probably would work but I bet it would have to be exact so as not to throw the bullet off balance. if lead were to build up on one side it might not fly right, Then if the hole was small like .062 or so it may work out pretty well. Ipicked .062 because thats the size of my ejection pin. good idea ' why not give it a try. all you couls loose is a bullet or two.

[Reload3006]

I am thinking it may be ok ... but i will put the jackets in a Harding speed lathe and drill them with the smallest drill bit i can get. thinking that may be around .010 I know if they aren't in the exact center centrifugal force will cause more yaw than an air pocket. but turning in a 5C collet it should be less than .0005 TIR probably even better.

[Reload3006]

Just did some checking #80 drill is about .014 still pretty small if in the center should work well for air bleed and not cause any yaw.

[DukeInFlorida]

Taking it a bit further......

There's nothing wrong with ANY of the dies I have seen for sale or made and shown on this forum. As long as that set does for YOU what you want it to do.

One of the first things I discuss in my reloading classes is bullet selection. It all starts with the bullet. What are you planning on doing with the bullet?

If you're plinking at 50 yards, then you are wasting $$$ buying match grade 600 yard bullets.

If you're shooting elk at 800 yards, then 50 yard plinking bullets are a bad choice.

If you're a serious benchrest shooter, then nothing but the very best long distance bullets are OK.

Keep in mind that the serious benchrest shooters are the ones with matched sets of brass, trimmed, trued, and processed to eliminate any possible deviations. They weigh and measure every bullet, and would most likely discard 80+ out of a box of a hundred commercial "match grade" bullets. They shoot $6000 rifles, and $3000 scopes sitting on $800 rests, and have the finest optics for spotting.

The equipment (including the rifles) is so precise that even the mirage from the gun's barrel heat is an issue.

Bullets for that end of the sport could easily cost $5-$6 each (just the bullet), and it's worth every cent.

Read up on what's called, "F Class" shooting, and you'll get a sense for that level of swaging.

So, again, Gerry, welcome to castboolits. We'll learn all we can from your knowledge, and hope to retain half of that!

The making of jackets takes your experience to even higher levels! Wow.