Figured I would start a new thread on this subject I was wondering will the older black powder era pistols take light smokeless loads or should you use black powder or a substitute? Any one load for them here? I might be getting a H&R not sure of the model yet or the vintage of the pistol if it was made in the BP ere or the Smokeless era.
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
THIS POST is not exactly the same thing, but it might give you a starting point to work from.
Thanks Jim, I still need to address the issue if light loads of smokeless is safe in the older revolvers.
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
................It's a tough call without some way to truly KNOW what the actual pressure is.
I have this old Iver Johnson in 38 S&W and it's certainly in super condition. I have no idea when it was made. I've been shooting it with 150gr Lyman 35863 WC's and a Lee GB 146gr RN (original S&W boolit design) over 1.6grs of Red Dot with no ill effects. However, I'm NOT offering that as a safe load. If you're interested the WC with that charge is doing a hand numbing 510 fps
Iver Johnson 5 shot 38 SW @ 25 yards benched. Lyman 35863 pure lead, TL, 1.6gr Red Dot 510 fps. Not too bad for what it is. If you take a look at the thickness of that front sight blade, and the tiny rear "V", trying to get 5 rounds off before you go blind straining, is a real challange!
With the exception of the 200gr RN on the far left, I've used all these in the IJ over that same load. None have bounced off the target paper yet. Right of the 200gr RN is the Lyman 35863 and it drops a nice chubby .364". Next up is the Lee 105gr DEWC, a group buy. Then the Lee GB 146gr RN, and also loaded. The last loaded one is a Colt New Police round. Same as a S&W, only with a FN slug.
...............Buckshot
Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always
Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.
"The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance
I've an old Forehand and Wadsworth 38 S&W that I have loaded for, #358-311 with 2 grains of Bullseye gives about 600 FPS, 2.8 grains of Unique does about the same. My groups are on a par with factory ammo but recoil seems a hair lighter in the reloads than in the factory stuff. This gun has a trigger pull measured in metric tonnes, virtually useless sights and my attempts at shooting groups more closely resemble patterns from shot shells than tidy groups.
Last edited by rintinglen; 11-15-2011 at 03:00 PM.
I have an Iver Johnson that I think is in the smokeless powder era, (it has a transfer bar) but there are a lot of variations. To get on with the story, I bought a box of .38 S&W from Miwall at one of the Big Reno Gunshows and tried it, for five rounds. The little revolver handled it better than I did, those guns are light. I decided to load my own light loads for it since all I use it for is plinking and maybe running traps.
My new little Howard Arms .32 S&W will start out with a load of blackpowder with a round ball, if I even decide is is safe to try it out after I get done cleaning it up.
Robert
So many of those guns were produced when black and smokeless were both common, I think it's an out and out krap shoot on if they were or weren't made for smokeless. I think the best advice is to find a light load it likes and stick with it.
Guys these two links might identify what your Iver Johnson or H&R is vintage wise.
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=457
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=47919
from what I have gathered if the H&R has a coil hammer spring its smokeless flat spring its BP
read through both of these threads it has good info for determining what age your guns may be with patent and serial numbers.
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
The third model Iver Johnson that Buckshot has in the pic is made for smokeless. The first two models were bp. The owl on the grip of the 3rd model is looking at you, the on the 1st and 2nd models it looks toward the muzzle.
I have a third model on the way just like the one in the pic. My Lee Modern Reloading says 2.4 grains red dot as a max load for the 146g lead boolit. I plan on loading 2g and calling it good.
AJ
Beat profusely with hammer until functional.
Okay, mine must be a 1st or 2nd model, the owl is looking towards the muzzle. Light loads are definitely in order.
Robert
So that goes to my original question do you think light smokeless is safe or black powder only?Originally Posted by Mk42gunner
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
..............I'm not recomending anything to anyone else, but what I'd do is to load a 38 S&W case full of 2Fg and an appropriate slug and shoot it over a chronograph. As I mentioned, the 150gr WC with 1.6grs Red Dot did 510 fps. If the BP load shot as fast, or faster I'd consider the 1.6gr load safe. So long as the boolit weights were comparable.
Black powder is an explosion, and smokless is a more gentle progressive burn. In my feeble noggin' I'm figuring a 150 gr boolit going X velocity needs Y pressure, and it would seem that if smokless delivered that pressure, the (comparatively) longer pressure curve would actually be easier on the pistol then BP?
SP101GUY, thank you for that info as I never knew the pistol's pedigree.
................Buckshot
Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always
Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.
"The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance
Some claim the smokeless is a faster pressure curve then black. Don't know but the older Lyman book for the 32 cal loads is says to only use the starting load info for the 32 S&W and the S&W Long. For the 38 S&W it says only use the loads for Solid Frame revolvers? Not sure why they would not use the same advice for the 38 but they do not.Since your gun is made for smokeless Buckshot I guess your good to go and your load is plenty safe. I talked to my friend his son is bringing up the H&R 32 this weekend he is coming up for deer season. I will not bother my friend about it until after deer season is over with and then find out the info on it.
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
Buckshot, the 1st model had the single hook latch, the 2nd model had the double hook latch.
AJ
Beat profusely with hammer until functional.
I believe that all the second model Ivers were for BP. I have both second & third models but only load BP for both. I use the smokeless for the Webley.
Honestly, unless a top break revolver was made after WWII, I'm not sure I would load smokeless in it. The cylinders on these guns are tiny compared to anything else.
I agree with Bret that it is Krap shoot on quality and safety, especially on house brand guns.
I like Buckshot's idea of starting with 2F blackpowder, since I think the .32 and .38S&W were originally loaded with 3F.
I also like an idea that I think was Molly's about using round balls in them, lighter projectile should mean lower pressures.
These little things are something to play with to me, it is not worth getting hurt by trying to load them hot; I have other guns for that.
Robert
I do not plan on loading anything hot all my reloading is on the moderate side of things. I think as long as you keep the charges down low and keep the pressures down it should be ok. If the model I get was made for smokeless I will probably go with that if BP I will probably go with that.
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
My H&R is a 2nd Mdl premier (5th edition) in .38S&W. in very good condition. I bought it for $5 in a pawn shop in the early '70s to use as a training aide for disarming techniques for LEOs. They didn't have all the fancy fakes in different colors that they have nowadays back then and squirt/cap guns didn't last long. My H&R is still in about 80% external condition with no rust or pitting outside or internally. The H&R has taken a lot of punishment in such training (dropped, thrown etc.) and still is in very good mechanical condition. It languished in the back of the gun cabinet/safe for many years after I left LE. Some years back, in a "deal", I ended up with a partial box of Remington factory .38S&W so I decided to give the H&R a try. To my surprise she shot very well considering the sights and double action only pull.
I usually don't disagree with Bret or Buckshot but if one does know what they have and the handgun is in good condition then I see no reason why it can't be shot with smokeless loads of it was made for smokeless loads. I've shot a bit of factory in mine since that first partial box of Remingtons and some handloads. I tried regular soft cast .38 bullets and even HBWCs but accuracy, while adequate, wasn't up to par with factory. The RP and REM/UMC factory loads run 620 - 640 fps out of my 3 3/16" barreled H&R. I've found the Lee 358-105-SWC cast soft and left "as cast" at .362" with a light coat of LLA shoot real well over 2 - 2.5 gr of Bullseye in the R-P cases. Haven't chronographed that load yet though. I've shot quite a few of them in my H&R and enjoy rolling a soda can around at 5 -10 yards with it.
Regular .38 dies can be used but they size the cases too much and don't crimp. I use my 9mm dies to load the .38S&Ws with. I back off the sizer enough to just to hold the bullet, bell the case mouth with the Lee tool, seat the bullet and back the sizer out a bit more with the decap rod removed to give a slight taper crimp. Could buy a set of .38SS&W dies but I don't shoot that many so using the 9mm dies for what I do load isn't really a hassle.
With a soft swaged .38 HBWC loaded to 650 fps it still would make a reasonable "house" or "pocket" gun. Accuracy would be quite adequate at close range and the WC would be much more effective than the factory RNs. Not really my recomendation for self defense but These revolvers are "useable" if necessary.....better than nothing or calling 911 and just waiting for the police to arrive........and save you........
BTW; 2 gr bullseye is the starting load for a 121 gr cast bullet in the .38S&W (Lyman) so the load with the 105 gr SWC is quite mild.
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 11-18-2011 at 12:55 PM.
Thanks for the info Larry
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
I just saw this at Alliant maybe those that have the BP vintage revolvers that do not want to mess with black might want to try this?
Black MZ
Dependable Muzzleloader Performance
Effective in all black powder firearms, Black MZ™ is a black powder replacement designed for hunters, Cowboy Action shooters and re-enactment enthusiasts. Moisture resistant and virtually non-corrosive, Black MZ replicates black powder performance without the ignition headaches and cleaning hassles common to traditional black powder use.
Moisture resistant for dependable ignition in all weather » Get the Facts
Virtually non-corrosive for increased barrel protection
Burns cleaner for less residue and easier cleaning
Better velocities at lower pressures
Principal Purpose: Muzzleloader Hunting
Secondary Uses: Black Powder Cartridges (Cowboy Action, Re-enactments)
Last edited by jh45gun; 11-19-2011 at 12:38 AM.
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
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