1886 Winchester rifle in .45-90 - load development

[Sixgun Symphony]

I just bought this new rifle yesterday. The barrel is marked "blackpowder only", not that I would consider shooting smokeless gunpowder in this cartridge. Should I try paperpatched bullets? Should I use a wad or grease cookie? Any recommendations for specific bullet molds?

[Don McDowell]

might want to start with this bullet (or similar)http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...57317&CAT=4135
and 90 grs of 2f blackpowder.
Unless you're single loading and using a patched bullet that is quite a bit under bore diameter , they don't work so good with leverguns.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
As with all rifles find out for sure what the throat diameter really is.
I shoot several old Winchesters (1876, 92´s 94´s) with BP and I have always found that a near throat diameter boolit shoots best. If the throat is .462 I would consider a .460 cast of 40-1. This mix boolit readily bumps up to throat diameter and easily swages back down as it gets to the narrower groove diameter. You have to stay a bit loose at the throat due to fouling but the more under throat diameter you get you will start loosing on accuracy...
Cookie.. depends on boolit and if it carries enough lube for the barrel. I find if my particular boolit is a bit short of lube I smear the nose with a bit more before loading.
Wad.. I place a cereal box wad under all BP boolits. Sometimes 2 if needed if a recovered boolit shows the base is pitted from the BP. This is usually in large bore rifles which yours qualifies. I tend not to buy anything I can make myself and cereal boxes are easy to find.
Mike in Peru

[Sixgun Symphony]

thanks guys!

[Sixgun Symphony]

I was just reading a copy of Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook and Loading Manual. On the table for .45-90 on page 313, it lists the #457125 500gr bullet with an asterisk next to it denoting "for single shot rifles only".

I am wondering why as I thought the 500gr cast bullet was the original load for the 1886 Winchester rifle and I am sure that my new 1886 Winchester is made of stronger steel than the rifles produced in the 19th century.

[Don McDowell]

The orginal bullet was the 300 gr, altho for a while Winchester did offer a 350 gr bullet (45-85) and a 405 gr (45-80), but the 500 gr bullet takes up to much case room when seated to the depth needed to cycle thru the 86 action.

[powderburnerr]

the round nose will rest on the primer in the front , not a good thing.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The orginal bullet was the 300 gr, altho for a while Winchester did offer a 350 gr bullet (45-85) and a 405 gr (45-80), but the 500 gr bullet takes up to much case room when seated to the depth needed to cycle thru the 86 action.

I will have to see if the shop will let me exchange them for lighter bullets.

[405]

Yes, the 500 is a bit too big (long) for the 45-90 and is not original to the 45-90 Win lever ammo anyway. You'd be better off, as has been posted, with a 325 or 425 gr +/- bullet.

Since it is Miroku manufacture I woudn't feel too ashamed or historically incorrect shooting a gas checked bullet. If you go that route you get a twofer... BP or smokeless. BTW the modern repros by Miroku likely are stronger and built to tighter tolerances than the originals ever were.

RCBS makes a fine mold for both of those GC bullets in the 325-425 gr range. I think RCBS lists them as 300-FN and 405-FN. I have both and both drop a good bit heavy.

[TXGunNut]

Some threads here and elsewhere about the 330 Gould (Lyman 457122) in your rifle. I'd be happy to send you a handful next time that mould gets hot but I'm looking at the Ranch Dog 350gr or the RCBS mould Don linked to.

[Chill Wills]

Here is the deal with the original Winchester rifles in 45-90 v 45-70.
Not only was the chamber longer on the big 1886 rifle chambered for the 45-90 but the twist was a good deal slower too. Bullets used were between 300gr and up to 350gr.
Winchester’s model 1886 claim to fame was it was the first model they were able to offer in that large and popular caliber. In those days there was an idea that express rifles were the way to fast and clean kills on large game (lager than deer). So the 45-90 was offered as the 2.4” case and a 32 twist. This twist is much slower than the Government 45 standard twist put in their model 1886 chambered for 45-70 Govt.
So, back in the day, even though an original 45-90 Winchester could be shot (in a pinch) with 45-70-405 rounds, accuracy would not be as good as with the lighter bullets. Moving up in bullet weight from there, using the surplus Army 45-70-500 would make that slow twist barrel shoot even worse.
The take away with a modern ’86 in 45-90 is to find out or measure the twist on your rifle and load for it accordingly. It could be that it was barreled with the same barrel stock they use on the 45-70 rifles they put out. …or not.

[bigted]

i agree...the twist will dictate what size...length boolit is going to perform best for you. that being said...if you do have an 18 to 22 inch twist and are hung on doing a shoulder beater load then go to the rcbs moulds as has been mentioned and bring home a 45-500 fn/gc mould and im bettin you will get enough bp in behind this monster to have all the punch/power you will want to withstand. prolly get around 70 grains powder behind it and ill attest to a 520ish boolit humping along with 70 + grains black as some kinda load....have fun and let us know your progress...please?...and photos of the rifle as well pilgrim!!!

[Wayne Smith]

i agree...the twist will dictate what size...length boolit is going to perform best for you. that being said...if you do have an 18 to 22 inch twist and are hung on doing a shoulder beater load then go to the rcbs moulds as has been mentioned and bring home a 45-500 fn/gc mould and im bettin you will get enough bp in behind this monster to have all the punch/power you will want to withstand. prolly get around 70 grains powder behind it and ill attest to a 520ish boolit humping along with 70 + grains black as some kinda load....have fun and let us know your progress...please?...and photos of the rifle as well pilgrim!!!

And, if you do this with a 520ish boolit also let us know how your shoulder is doing!

[Red River Rick]

That would be interesting! A 86' shootin 500+ grain bollits with a CRESENT STYLE buttplate....................

As Wayne mentioned: "let us know how your shoulder feels after a few rounds".

RRR

[405]

Exactly, knock yourselves out shooting 500+ gr bullets out of a 45-90 M86. Reason to do it?- I've no clue.

In the end, because the bullets need to be securely crimped in the case, the bullet nose length, from tip to crimp groove, is going to limit which rounds will feed through the action because of OAL. The next limiter is twist and/or accuracy??? The next limiter is recoil???

[Don McDowell]

I don't believe the recoil would be quite as miserable as some are trying to make it. First off to load a 500 gr bullet short enough to feed thru the magazine probably isn't going to allow for much more than 70-75 grs of black. So that's not that much more than a 45-70. Surely couldn't be anyworse than some of the smokeless loads some folks think they need to shoot thru 45-70's..

[Chill Wills]

I don't believe the recoil would be quite as miserable as some are trying to make it. First off to load a 500 gr bullet short enough to feed thru the magazine probably isn't going to allow for much more than 70-75 grs of black. So that's not that much more than a 45-70. Surely couldn't be anyworse than some of the smokeless loads some folks think they need to shoot thru 45-70's..

Agree for sure. I have an old button mag 1886 45-70 that I used to single feed 540gr Tom Ballard paperpatch bullets with smokeless. Offhand plinking, rolling around 12" log firewood sections was great fun. The shoulder was no worse off than banging away with a 12 gauge for the afternoon. I know some people have trouble with the old butt. The cresent butt just never did anything but fit me.

[TXGunNut]

45-90/500gr BP load in an 1886 shouldn't be too much of a thumper, not at all unpleasant in a Sharps-and mine's not a heavyweight. 500 grainer over a stiff charge of smokeless in a Guide Gun WILL give you a good thumping if that's what you're looking for. If you're using a scope and wearing glasses you might want to set the glasses on the bench for the first shot.

[rockrat]

You didn't happen to buy that gun in Western Colorado, did you?.

[bigted]

LOL...so i regularly shoot the lyman 520ish boolit ahead of 70 grains black powder thru my lite Winchester hunter model [8 lbs] with the extreme crescent Winchester style butt-stock with no ill effects. i withstand the recoil from this combo very well and im no recoil fanatic...i like my rotator cuff! i also had the browning hunter model that is the Winchester twin and it were gouged out to accept the 45-120 case....[would still have this beast if the chamber was cut correctly ] i shot this with the exact cresent plate with no ill effects after i got the hang of snuggling the curve around my arm instead of IN my shoulder.

this 70 grains powder with the 500ish boolit in a fairly lite rifle will NOT tear yer arm off like the hot smokless rounds will that others refer to. as for the length i still refer you to the rcbs boolit that is designed for lever guns and most of the boolit hangs out inside the case.......in 45-90 you should get the 65 to 70 grains powder in there behind this boolit. i load my 458 winny [ which is a 45-2.5 inch case compared to your 45-2.4 inch case ] with this boolit and get 75 grains powder behind it for a puff 458 load...fun watchin others at the range when i touch off a scoped bolt gun with black powder.

have fun 'sixgun'. no matter what you decide to shoot in her it will be fun im bettin. its true tho that the 300 - 350's are what is going to be the historic correct boolits in yer '90'. the Winchester 45-90 is a small bit different than the sharps 45-2.4 cartridge tho ive heard that both have very similar chambers.