75 gr 223/5.56 boolit?

[338RemUltraMag]

Was there a group buy for a 75 gr projectile at any time? I have been pondering a boolit that would be for a bolt gun or single loaded in an AR style rifle. There are plenty of chamber casts of the 223, 223 wylde, and 5.56 and would prefer it to fit all chambers or at least the wylde and 5.56. would there be an interest for such a booilt or is it feasable?

Thanks for the interest and thoughts!

[MUSTANG]

Was there a group buy for a 75 gr projectile at any time? I have been pondering a boolit that would be for a bolt gun or single loaded in an AR style rifle. There are plenty of chamber casts of the 223, 223 wylde, and 5.56 and would prefer it to fit all chambers or at least the wylde and 5.56. would there be an interest for such a booilt or is it feasable?

Thanks for the interest and thoughts!

I too was interested in a 75 Grain Boolit for the .223/5.56 but did not locate any such animal (not that there isn't, just I did not locate it). Instead I added my name to the 68 Grain Group Buy list. Have you seen this link?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=116331

I would go for a 75 Grain option too; but getting 30 people together could be a long effort.


Mustang

[338RemUltraMag]

I am signed up for the NOE 68 gr loverin design but I hunt deer with my AR and a 75 gr pill would get me even closer to a full power load. I assume a cast pill would perform every time and I would like that in a .224 bore

[MUSTANG]

Was there a group buy for a 75 gr projectile at any time? I have been pondering a boolit that would be for a bolt gun or single loaded in an AR style rifle. There are plenty of chamber casts of the 223, 223 wylde, and 5.56 and would prefer it to fit all chambers or at least the wylde and 5.56. would there be an interest for such a booilt or is it feasable?

Thanks for the interest and thoughts!

After additional contemplation; I continue to believe that a heavier Spitzer style Cast Boolit should be of interest. My thoughts are more in line with a cast version of the M855/SS109; but with the heavier weight of the Speer or other brand ~75 grain projectiles. The M855/SS109 projectiles are composed predominantly of the steel penetrator and copper alloy jacket and core fillers; so the higher density of lead cast into the same volume would facilitate a heavier bullet in a similar sized package. Below is a notional design that should get us into the desired area for discussion purposes.



This design would result in the base (Gas Check) being located deeper within the case; below the neck, compared to other cast .224 boolit designs available. This should facilitate those who are using AR type rifles; but does necessitate good gas check adhesion to the base, plus other concerns. My thoughts are the projectile would weigh in somewhere in the 75 to 80 grain range. It should help with longer ranges; just as the heavier military ball does.

I am by no means a ballistics designer; comments from those with more experience is welcome.

Mustang.

[MUSTANG]

In the previous post I indicated that the drawing I produced should provide for a Cast Boolit similar to the military SS109/M855 Ball projectile. Below is a picture for consideration and comparison to my idea of a .225 Cast Boolit design.





As you can see, the SS109 and M855 are distinct and separate specifications; but very close to each other.

[338RemUltraMag]

Sweet, now who is interested?

[Hamish]

Interested.

[badgeredd]

In order to keep the gas check supported at least partially in the neck, have you considered reducing the nose diameter a little to create a semi bore riding profile? One could then load the case a bit longer IF the magazine would allow it. I'm thinking a guy could find the maximum length for a loaded cartridge and work as much as practical within the constrains of neck length and max OAL of the cartridge. Does a 75 grains boolit fit into that window? Just asking.....

Edd

[Wayne S]

How about this one, http://noebulletmolds.com/orders/cat...products_id=88
I have it in a 5 cavity if anyone is interested

[Hamish]

One lube groove, with bigger driving bands gets you up to what weight? Point the nose more? Whatever you do, aren't you fixing to flub up if it's designed to put the GC in the case? I'm all for making it heavier, but it needs to fit T/C chambers for .223 and .22 hornet, and AR .223/5.56/Wylde would be a bonus.

[338RemUltraMag]

The original idea was for a boolit similar in profile to the 165 Ranch Dog 30-30 boolit that weighed in at 75 gr plus. A pointy would be fine but it HAS TO fit the wylde/5.56 throat.

[MUSTANG]

Wow:

I guess this is where the fun begins as we attempt to get 30 people with many different Goals, Requirements and Ideas into a common solution that works for all.

1. My thoughts were for a Boolit to use in my AR-15. In my thinking this would be a spitzer/semi-spitzer design to ensure efficient feeding/chambering in a semi Auto. I have a Remington 40X and Savage Axis chambered in .223 that can accommodate seating a design out much further than the magazines an AR Platform can tolerate so design requirements for them would be less limiting.

The AR Platforms are limited by the internal Magazine length, my calipers tell me that out of 5 magazines measured, a length of 2.31 inches is about the absolute longest that could be achieved with only .001 or .002 free space left for movement. There is no guarantee that the magazine will reliably feed at this length, have to make up a group of rounds and test to see, including firing tests.

The NATO spec calls for an OAL of 2.26”. The maximum case length is 1.76”. To fit in a magazine with the same dimensions as measured on 5 of mine, no more than 0.55” is allowable outside of the case. This would allow for a loaded Boolit that is as much as .05 longer than OAL Spec.’s for NATO. Not much room to play with for a magazine fed round in the AR Platform unless it seats below the neck. As seen in the below case diameter drawings, there is only .2027 length available in the neck area.










2. For the Bolt Guns there is obviously more room to play with by extending the Boolit further out depending on individual free bore. Seating of the NOE 225407 (I have joined the Group Buy for this mold) or the NOE 225 70Gr. type cast boolits are seated with a considerable portion of the Boolit exposed. Seems that for those desiring a heavier Boolit in a bolt gun, simply adding another .018 to .020 onto the length of either mold will get us into the 77Gr range.

338RemUltraMag; do you have a drawing of the 165 Ranch Dog for 30-30? I have found pictures and graphics, but no drawings with dimensions. Perhaps with that I could draw up a concept as I did with my proposed 77Gr. Nominal draft.

For all; Keep in mind that this is the first time I have ever attempted to even notionally design a Boolit.


Mustang

[MUSTANG]

How about this one, http://noebulletmolds.com/orders/cat...products_id=88
I have it in a 5 cavity if anyone is interested

Wayne S; how much do you want for the NOE 225 70Gr. RN 5 cavity mold? It is a gas check design, correct?

[338RemUltraMag]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...d.php?t=131471

Possibly a pointier boolit, but still having a flat point that would allow for more weight to be outside of the case, I even would be cool with a single load shilouette boolit like the 80 gr smk.

[35remington]

Given that the accurate velocity may be low, is it asking for trouble making the projectile too long and heavy? At, say, a velocity of 16-1700 fps, which would cycle an AR with a 75 grain bullet and likely be the best velocity range, is there a possibility that stability would be inadequate at the "most likely to be accurate" speed in 1-7, 1-8 or 1-9 twists?

Is this likely to be a 1-7 twist only bullet at lower speeds? If so, or someone can prove that it will (or will not) be stable in the 1-7 to 1-9 twist at "likely to be accurate and functional" velocities this ought to be known up front.

If it is possible to do so. That way those with suitable rifles can participate, and those who do not can bow out.

Just thinking a little. And maybe not thinking enough, but someone might already have the answer to that question. It would be a shame to have a long bullet that was not functional at its most accurate speed. I'm not crazy enough to think we'd be able to get this to shoot at 2700 fps in a 1-7 twist very easily. Likely not, so I'm compelled to ask about low speed.

The other reason is that I haven't shot any cast bullets longer than the RCBS 55 grain FN through my AR's so I'm wondering how longer bullets will turn out.

[MUSTANG]

Based on initial comments; I have drawn up a series of five notional Cast Boolits that hopefully represent the ideas and goals expressed. The shorter Boolits are conceived to address the concerns expressed about a Boolits base above the Gas Check being exposed to hot gas jets wash if too deeply seated, as well as concern for a Gas Check becoming dislodged inside the neck. I did some research and measuring and have noted that several existing production Molds such as the RCBS .22-55-SP 506, NOE 260 80Gr RF (RD), NOE SAECO #221 60Gr, etc..; if seated to the neck band, will have significant portions of the bullet base seated below the shoulder in the case. What are the experiences of others on deep seating cast boolits?

It is interesting to note that the notional drawing I created of a “Ranch Dog” style .223 Boolit is really close to the .260 caliber Boolit – NOE 260 80Gr. RF (RD); except my notional Boolit is much longer at 0.910” in length. Trimming one driving band off would result in a Boolit about the same length as the NOE .260 Boolit (with reduced weight because of a smaller diameter).

The weights listed are all extrapolated from drawings, and are not computed. I’ll get my wife to work on calculating estimated weights if there is further interest in pursuing any of these ideas. (She is the Math & Physics Major and has agreed to do the grunt work of calculating weights at a later date if there is sufficient interest). I am sure there will be observations and comments of existing Boolit Molds that closely resemble/duplicate some of these drawings. Click on Drawings to enlarge.

Comments or Recommendations?


Mustang

[338RemUltraMag]

I like 1 and 2, either or would feed well in an AR I think, I would like to know the weight of them and I see they are estimated at 80 and 82 grains, They would be perfect with my preferance to the RD design

[Larry Gibson]

35Remington brings up very good issues and problems with cast bullets in the ARs with twists from 7" to 12".

My thoughts were for a Boolit to use in my AR-15. In my thinking this would be a spitzer/semi-spitzer design to ensure efficient feeding/chambering in a semi Auto.

"Spitzer/semi-spitzer" cast bullets are notorious for theirinaccuracy above1700 fps. Do we really think a .223 cast bullet of such design will do any better?

I have been shooting cast bullets in .223 in bolt actions, SSs and gas guns for 40+ years. This has included ARs with 7, 8, 9, 12 and 14" twists. From my experience none of your designs will shoot accurately above 1600 - 1700 fps in AR of sufficient twist for stabilizing the bullets at that low end velocity level. Function reliability will probably also be a problem. As with any other cast bullet shot at high RPM (as they will be in the faster twists) with any reasonable accuracy a short nose, well supported bore riding nose (if there is one) is needed. The last GB of the heavier bullet is still in the testing phase to see if it is practical at higher velocities in the faster twists. A RN cast bullet feeds fine in most all ARs BTW. The Lovern style 225462 at 58 - 60 gr (fully dressed) has been the best cast bullet so far (40+ years of testing) for the best accuracy above 140,000 RPM. It is capable 2300 2400 fps with M193 accuracy out of 12" twist ARs. The velocity level to maintain that accuracy goes down as the twist increases.

Before spending a lot of time, effort and $s a thorough study and research of what cast bullet designs shoot well at what velocities with 7 -10" twists might be benificial. The other thing to consider is functional reliability at what velocity level is feasable. Again, 35Reminton brought up some very good points that should be seriously considered.

Larry Gibson

[MUSTANG]

Given that the accurate velocity may be low, is it asking for trouble making the projectile too long and heavy? At, say, a velocity of 16-1700 fps, which would cycle an AR with a 75 grain bullet and likely be the best velocity range, is there a possibility that stability would be inadequate at the "most likely to be accurate" speed in 1-7, 1-8 or 1-9 twists?

Is this likely to be a 1-7 twist only bullet at lower speeds? If so, or someone can prove that it will (or will not) be stable in the 1-7 to 1-9 twist at "likely to be accurate and functional" velocities this ought to be known up front.

If it is possible to do so. That way those with suitable rifles can participate, and those who do not can bow out.

Just thinking a little. And maybe not thinking enough, but someone might already have the answer to that question. It would be a shame to have a long bullet that was not functional at its most accurate speed. I'm not crazy enough to think we'd be able to get this to shoot at 2700 fps in a 1-7 twist very easily. Likely not, so I'm compelled to ask about low speed.

The other reason is that I haven't shot any cast bullets longer than the RCBS 55 grain FN through my AR's so I'm wondering how longer bullets will turn out.

35 Remington & Larry Gibson:


Appreciate your comments, and looking forward to your help and sharing your wealth of knowledge. I have not commented to your post previously because the simple answer is: "I do not know". As I mentioned in a previous post, I am by no means a Ballistics Designer. I have an eclectic information base, derived from over 35 years of reading on firearms and munitions, and shooting. I have been casting along the way in that period and have had excellent results with pistol/revolver; but hit and miss with Rifle loads until I started lurking on the Cast Boolits site some 3 years ago, once again reading and gathering Knowledge. Knowledge garnered from reading Cast Boolits posts proved fruitful as accuracy for my Cast Boolit Rifle groups in various calibers improved dramatically. Once I felt I had something to contribute, I joined as a member.

1. You mention "Likely to be Stable" in the 1-7 to 1-9 twist. Do you have a reference other than the empirical information you and other sages on this sight have accumulated over the years for what is "Likely to be Stable"?

2. I have read and acquired some of the works of Pope, papers/Booklets published by NRA, Lyman Manuals, RCBS's Manual, and others; but in truth there is little written/published work in the last few decades other than magazines and Internet forums concerning the art of Casting Boolits for Rifles. Perhaps a compilation of the wealth of data and personal experiences in this and other forums would prove useful and serve future generations in the same manner that the writings from the early through mid 1900's has done for our generation.

3. Most .22 caliber reloading information is focused on either varmint hunting or highly accurate paper punching. Cast Boolits seems to also follow this focus. Over the last two decades we have seen a significant number of new shooters selecting the AR Black Rifle platforms (Probably because of their military & police experience with these rifles, or because of TV and Movie exposure). As time passes we are seeing more and more AR platforms in the Varmint Hunting arena. What we are not seeing much of, is an increase in the use of Cast Boolits in the AR Platforms. In fact, we often see the warnings that use of Cast should be avoided at all costs due to the Gas System, Velocity, feeding, et. al.

4. In my opinion this is because many shooters of the Black Rifle have become highly educated in the last two decades on internal, external, and terminal ballistics of the 2.23/5.56; and the body of knowledge in this area is focused on the original intent of high velocity, and the emergent trend over the last two decades of heavier projectiles. I remember having a conversation with the owner of Ransberger Cal Customs in Fallbrook California during the mid 1970's about the 5.56 round. He shared with me that in the late 1960's and early 1970's there had been a strong desire with numerous experiments to get a heavier projectile for the service round based on necking the 5.56 case up to 6mm. The experiments were successful, but the internal politics of DOD and NATO made it impossible to accomplish, no matter what the War Fighters desired in the realm of a heavier projectile. So my observation is that this condition prevailed until the old Guard retired and sufficient data was reported back from Grenada, Panama, and the First Gulf War, resulting in heavier projectiles for improved range and terminal ballistics.

5. Bottom line is that I believe that a heavier Cast Boolit is desirable to not only meet my personal objectives, but to also to tempt those many hundreds of thousand AR Black Rifle shooters into the Cast Boolit world. It only helps our sport if we have greater numbers of shooters involved.

6. In the military and as a Project Manager I approached every task with the same philosophy: Do not tell me why we can't do it; rather let's explore and define all the constraints and conditions in the task and develop a way to do it that works. Seems we are currently in the explore and define all the constraints and conditions in the task phase. Once that is accomplished, we need to move forward to defining and discussing ways "To Successfully Complete the Task".


Mustang

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I am ready to order the Ranch Dog Profile 80gr boolit.

Rich
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