Brag about your 375 Whelen or Thoughts?

[houndsnmules]

I'm just finishing up a 400 Brown Whelen. I didn't have the exact dimensions so I used a .458 shoulder with a shorter neck. I'm working on loads for a 350 Hawk bullet now. I believe I can use 411 Hawk or Brown Whelen loads to start with

[mart]

I cannot speak to the 375 Whelen other than to say a friend has one, loves it and has experienced none of the headspace issues that have seem to follow all the large Whelen rounds. I can speak with some degree of authority on both the 35 Whelen and the 400 Whelen. I have both in their original configurations and have never experienced any of the "headspace" issues that get brought up during any discussion either and especially of the latter. If one does a Google search for 400 Whelen, one of the first hits will be a link to a Michael Petrov article, "Smashing the Headspace Myth". Michael is probably the foremost authority on all things Whelen and certainly the leading expert on the 400 Whelen.

The original 400 Whelen has a shoulder diameter of .458 as opposed to the .411 of the 30-06 and 35 Whelen. It always was an "improved" cartridge to begin with and the problems arose when fired cases were improperly sized so as to create set back shoulder or a shoulder diameter reduced to .411. The problem is easily rectified by using the correct dies, set correctly. We ask a 45 ACP to headspace on far less surface than what the 400 Whelen has for shoulder. Both Townsend Whelen and Elmer Keith considered the 400 Whelen a fine round and noted in their writings that problems came to be only when cases were incorrectly sized.

Michael's article was an eye opener for me and the impetus I needed to move forward with the 400 Whelen build. The 375 Whelen is on the short list for upcoming builds. Having experienced no issues with the 400 I would anticipate nothing but success with it's next smaller brother.

Mart

[nanuk]

0.411?

or do you mean 0.441?

[mart]

Your are absolutely right. It is .441. I shouldn't have written that after coming off a 12 hour night shift.

Mart

[houndsnmules]

I still see it on various forums about 400's not headspacing properly. If my shoulder height is even slighty longer then spec. You would need a hammer to tap the bolt closed. Some people just can't get that thru their head

[bearcove]

I keep toying with the idea of doing a 416 express that Ken Waters did. One problem is most the 416 bullets are 400gr and a few 350gr. His load data shows that the 300gr bullets might work best. Didn't find any light ones available.

The 405 caliber(.411) 300gr bullets are made by Hornady a FP and Spire pt. That would be better than the 416 bullets made for the magnums. That would make a nice 411 express. 350 rem mag brass necked up to .411. Same case capacity as the whelen. Hmm

[mart]

There is a fair selection of bullets available for the .411 bore cartridges. I tested all I could find except for the North Fork bullets in my 400 Whelen. Hawk has a 300, 350 and 400, Woodleigh has a 400 and Barnes has a 300 grain TSX. And of course there are the Hornady 300 grain flat points and spire points. I am most excited about trying mine out with cast bullets though. I have a mold from Accurate Molds that has a 320 grain and 400 grain cavity in the same block. I hope to get out this next week off to try a few. The 411 Express on the 350 Remington would make a fun wildcat and should be the equal of the 400 Whelen and 450/400 NE with cast or jacketed bullets.

[lotech]

There is an article in HANDLOADER #227 dealing with cast bullet use in the .411 Hawk.

[mellonhead]

I was just about convinced that I should do a 375-06. But now after reading this I am sure of it. Is there one rifle better than another to start with? I had planned on using a Ruger 77 in 30-06 to start. I have been looking at a couple Winchester model 70's also as donor guns.

Toby

[barkerwc4362]

I had a .375 Whelen Improved built 24 years ago. I used a Santa Barbara 98 action and shilen barrel. I had a tang safety installed like on my Ruger M77s. The boys a Wisner's built it for me. It is based on the African style, so it is not light. But it shoots really good. I mostly use Remington .35 Whelen brass necked up and fire formed. Have not fired a lot of cast through it, but 4895 works well with those I have used. I mostly use WCC-852 or H-380 with jacketed bullets of 250 - 300 grain weights.

Bill

[longbow]

I have always thought that the .35, .375 and .400 Whelen cartridges were very practical cartridges. I don't own any but always thought I would like to.

I have read the stories about headspace problems and wondered why it would be an issue when there are cartridges like .450 Bushmaster and .444 Rimless that headspace on only the case mouth.

Any shoulder larger than the brass thickness is large in comparison so should present no problem. Just my opinion though.

In any case, in defense of the .400 Whelen, here is an article I thought was interesting:

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

Longbow

[bearcove]

A case mouth is solid and supported. A case shoulder is soft and moves easier.

[bearcove]

Another part to that is the shoulder on an unimproved shoulder is being pushed into an inclined plane at 17 1/2 degrees an improved at 40 degrees a case mouth at 90 degrees.

Don't have a trig table handy, but the 17 degree is just sizing the shoulder back with a taper. At the other extreme the case mouth is supported by a column that would have to colapse.

[mart]

A case mouth is solid and supported. A case shoulder is soft and moves easier.

I don't know if you are implying that the shoulder could be moved back in the process of chambering a round but I can assure you that it cannot, at least in my rifle with the force I am able to apply to the bolt. I have deliberately placed rounds in front of the Winchester extractor and forced the extractor to snap over the rim in the chambering process in an effort to determine if the "headspace" issue can be made to happen. I have, in every attempt, been unable to move the shoulder back on the case. I do not think it possible outside of the loading press and sizing dies. If the dies are set correctly, headspace will never be an issue with the 375 or 400 Whelen.

Mart

[bearcove]

No I was adressing the headspace on case mouth.

The blow from a firing pin can size back the shoulder some.

I don't think the whelens have a headspace problem. More of a die/reload problem. That is operator error in most cases. Other cases with small shoulders are also prone to having the shoulders bumped back because it is easy to do.

[mart]

No I was adressing the headspace on case mouth.

The blow from a firing pin can size back the shoulder some.

I don't think the whelens have a headspace problem. More of a die/reload problem. That is operator error in most cases. Other cases with small shoulders are also prone to having the shoulders bumped back because it is easy to do.

With all due respect I cannot buy that. If the firing pin force was hard enough to drive the case forward with enough force to set the shoulder back it would be more than hard enough to puncture the primer. Sorry, I've heard that one before and I don't believe a firing pin spring can develop that much force.

[bearcove]

Thats the beauty of a free country, you can believe whatever you want

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I am in the process to loading my NOS 35 Whelen brass to 375 Whelen and have again enjoyed reading the previous posts. I hope to be firing my JES 375 this Monday if the weather warnings prove false.
Have already ran the brass over a .375 case mouth expander. Going to square up the mouths, prime and figure a fire form load using the Lyman 375449. Planning on 28 grains of 5744 to get a good fill out and that is the powder I have found in the storage.
Mike in ILLinois

[Harry O]

You might want to look up information on the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. That is a .375 Ackley Improved Whelen that was shortened 6mm (although the .375 Whelen came afterward). Otherwise (according to the dimensions in Cartridges of the World) they are pretty much the same.

I got one of the Mannlichers many years ago. It was originally based on 8mm Mauser brass, which is where it got the 57mm length. The 30-06 was also based on the 8mm Mauser base. I tried fire-forming some from 8x57 and found that it gave excess headspace. The firing pin drove the case forward to the end of the extractor before it formed the new shoulder. I cured that problem by using .35 Whelen brass for forming. Moving the neck back moved it into the larger diameter shoulder of the case. Then I could fire-form it to completely fill out the shoulder without giving it excess headspace.

Since the 9.5x57 is limited to about 45,000psi and it has less case capacity, that cartridge should be able to be used for safe starting loads for the .375 Whelen.

[scaevola]

Just read through this thread. Interesting - thanks for the info.