LeveRevoltuion Powder

[Larry Gibson]

Gabby

Sounds like a plan but lets take it a step at a time and do the 311041s first. We'll see how that works out first and then a progression to the 200 gr bullets won't take so many because we'll have a baseline. Can you send 50 or perhaps 100? That way I can test them with 7 shot strings working up and then have enough to confirm with a couple 10 shot strings if it works out.

Larry Gibson

[Whit Spurzon]

Outstanding report and thread. THANK YOU for sharing your data with us. I'm very interested in seeing how this develops.

[GabbyM]

Gabby

Sounds like a plan but lets take it a step at a time and do the 311041s first. We'll see how that works out first and then a progression to the 200 gr bullets won't take so many because we'll have a baseline. Can you send 50 or perhaps 100? That way I can test them with 7 shot strings working up and then have enough to confirm with a couple 10 shot strings if it works out.

Larry Gibson

Yes I’ve about that many in a box. They should make decent target slugs cast from 2;6 plus solder.

I can’t do any 30-30 load development as that rifle is my daughters and she is out in AZ while I’m in IL. Her and her BF have put in for bear permits so a strong heavy bullet load would be nice.

Bullets are sized and close to .310” x .300”. I can reduce that size if you want but the mold tops out at .310”.

PM me when you want them. I’ll cover shipping.

My 30-30 load for RCBS 30-180-FN is a bunch of WW 760 for over 1,900 fps but the pressure is high.

I’d be happy with that 1,950 fps velocity from the Lever Revolution powder and an easier pressure level to save brass and gun. At 33 cents per case this three shot life span is ten cents a shot. Haven’t shot the load enough to secure a three shot brass life but that’s what I expect.

I’ve sent out several thousand of those big RCBS 30-180-FN over the last few years. Get calls and emails with OMG. Bang two step.

My daughter is about 115 ponds soaking wet so 1,950 fps with a 200 grain bullet form a Marlin 336 is enough recoil and then some. Probably have her boy friend sight it in.

[Larry Gibson]

PM on the way.

Larry Gibson

[Canuck Bob]

Outstanding work Larry!

Here's the required British Commonwealth question. What about suitability for the 303 Brit? It seems to fall within the case capacity range of the larger moderm 30 cal rimmed lever cartridges.

Edit: The LEE guide puts the 307W at 3.19 cc and the 303 Brit at 3.28 cc "useful capacity" whatever that means regarding different bullet weights.

[dnepr]

Outstanding work Larry!

Here's the required British Commonwealth question. What about suitability for the 303 Brit? It seems to fall within the case capacity range of the larger moderm 30 cal rimmed lever cartridges.

Edit: The LEE guide puts the 307W at 3.19 cc and the 303 Brit at 3.28 cc "useful capacity" whatever that means regarding different bullet weights.

I have had similar thought as the .303 british does well with reloader 15 , and so does the 30-30 , I am guessing that this powder with lighter bullets ( I am thinking 150's) would work well

[oscarflytyer]

Four Fingers

Don't know if that's the powder or not, mag articles all refer to it as a "specially blended" powder, whatever that means. If it quits raining I'm planning on shooting that confirmation string this afternoon. So far it seems a really good 30-30 powder for 150 and obviously 160 gr (the factory) bullets. Appears too slow for lighter bullets from the psi/es/sd of the velocity and psis in the the work up. Didn't start burning very efficiently at 38 gr with the 150 gr bullet. I'm anxious to see how it does under a heavier 311041.

They also use this powder in the .30 Marlin Express and the .35 Rem LeveRevolution ammo. I don't think it will give me any better performance than 4895 in the .35 Rem with the 35-200-FN cast bullet out of my M91 rebarreled Mauser. However, I'm wondering what it might do in the 14" twist Palma .308W rifle with the 160 gr 311466. Right now I'm pushing that at 2600 fps with right at 41,000 psi using AA4350. Be interesting to see if LeveRevelution or perhaps the new SuperPerformance powder can equal that velocity with less psi with the same accuracy.

May very well be a good application for LeveRevolution powder in the 7.62x39 with heavier 150 - 160 gr cast bullets in bolt actions(?).....probably in other cartridges too such as the .303, etc. because of the loading density and burning charactoristics of this powder......remains to be seen.

Larry Gibson

Larry

GREAT info! And great news on the LE powder. I have Marlin 336s in both 30-30 and 35 Rem. Working on load dev for the 35 - haven't even shot the 30-30 yet. Trying to find the LE powder locally for testing. Looks promising.

I would also be very interested in your 35 Rem load w/ the 4895. Using IMR or H? If you wouldn't mind PM'ing me the data, I would appreciate it. Thanx

Steve

[w30wcf]

Picked up a pound of the new Hodgdon LeveRevolution powder. I wanted to get a feel for this powder before attempting cast bullet loads. The suggested load on teh powder lable said 35.5 gr with the 160 gr FTX bullet. I didn't have any of those but wanted to see how that powder did with 150 gr jacketed. I've a supply of 150 gr Wonchester 30-30 PPs so I decided to work up a load with those. I started at 36 gr and worked up to 40 gr.

FLS'd PMC cases were used with WLR primers A LFCD was used to apply the crimp. AOL was 2.53". The rifle used for the test is my M94AE which has a strain gauge attached for psi measurements via the M43 Oehler PBL. The test was ran at TRRC range in University Place, 240 ft ASL with the temp at 48 degrees.

A 5 shot string of factory 160 LeveRevolution 160 gr FTX rounds were fired prior to the test to get a "reference" for velocity and the peak MAP (Maximum Average pressure). The factory ammo ran 2433 fps at 36,800 psi(M43). A previous test of that factory ammunition at 75 degrees gave 2452 fps at 37,800 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi. Given the temperature this morning I decided that a psi(M43) of 37,000 would be my MAP with the reloads.

Bottom line is 40 gr of LeveRevolution under that 150 gr PP is a 100% density load. It topped out at 37,100 psi(M43) with a velocity of 2551 fps. Accuracy for the 5 shots was 2.1" with the apurture sights. The time/pressure curve was not as steep with considerably more time under the "rise" than with the factory load. The peak psi was reached at mid barrel length (12") with the reload vs 9" with the factory load. Standard factory 150/170 gr jacketed load hit peak psi at 7 - 8" of barrel. Yes I can measure where the peak psi occurs in the barrel.

Some years back after reading Paco kelly's articles on loading for the newer M94s I developed a Paco 150 gr load using H335 in a similar M94AE with a 24" barrel. Loads were developed by watching primer back out and stopping when the primer was no longer backing out. This indicates there is then sufficient psi to be pushing the case back against the bolt. PO Ackley gives a very good description of this technique in his writings. I stopped 3 gr under what a current loading manual listed as max for that bullet at the tiem. Velocity was 2527 fps and accuracy was good. That load tested this morning revealed a MAP of 44,400 psi(M43), obviously over SAAMI's MAP for the 30-30.

Bottom line here is that the LeveRevolution Powder is allowing a very real 2550 fps with 150 gr jacketed bullet at factory level psi's below the SAAMI MAP. That's pretty darn good to me and is a worth while powder thus far tested. I'm looking forward to some 311041s over this powder in this M94AE.

Larry Gibson

Larry,
AWESOME report! Very interesting data. Thank you!

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

........My 30-30 load for RCBS 30-180-FN is a bunch of WW 760 for over 1,900 fps but the pressure is high......

Gabby,
Hmmm.......Back in 2003, GW who worked in the Hodgdon ballistics lab at the time (he has since retired) tested some of my .30-30 cartridges with a 205 gr. cast bullet. My load was 35.0 / H414 (same as W760) / WLR in Winchester brass.
The bullet seating depth was .60".
In Hodgdon's 24" barrel the average velocity was 2,033 f.p.s. s.d. 12 fps
The average pressure was 35,090 CUP s.d. 1,170 CUP

That pressure is almost 10% below SAMMI MAP so based on that, perhaps the pressure of your load is not as high as it seems(?).

w30wcf

[GabbyM]

Gabby,
Hmmm.......Back in 2003, GW who worked in the Hodgdon ballistics lab at the time (he has since retired) tested some of my .30-30 cartridges with a 205 gr. cast bullet. My load was 35.0 / H414 (same as W760) / WLR in Winchester brass.
The bullet seating depth was .60".
In Hodgdon's 24" barrel the average velocity was 2,033 f.p.s. s.d. 12 fps
The average pressure was 35,090 CUP s.d. 1,170 CUP

That pressure is almost 10% below SAMMI MAP so based on that, perhaps the pressure of your load is not as high as it seems(?).

w30wcf

That velocity is off the internet published data. Not my chronograph.
Is why I posted the term “a bunch” instead of an actual load.
Since my daughters Marlin 336 is a 20” barrel. 133 fps difference divided by 4” of barrel would be 33 fps per inch of barrel. So that’s about right I recon. I see I wrote “but the pressure is high”. Well that’s real technical isn’t it. Poor choice of words. I didn’t’ mean to imply it was over standard max pressure.

Note in my book says 35.0 gr WW760, 2080 fps at 35,100. 205gr cast Old West.
Data from laodswap dot com. Maybe that’s your data?
Then in my reoladers reference data base there is a 150 grain bullet load from CastData R1. Win 760 - 36 grains - 1932 fps. As you know 36 grains is a case full. In one of my fired not sized Rem cases 36 grains is up in the neck until you vibrate it to settle. Which is probably what stops the 150 grain load from going higher.

The RCBS 30-180-FN seats below the neck to about the base of the shoulder. Mine weighs around 200 grains. One cast from 2/6 alloy is 191 grains naked before gas check and lube. From 50/50 alloy finished they are within a grain of 200. Seams like as much bullet as you’d want in a 30-30. 35 grains WW760 is about as much as will comfortably fit in most cases.

Perhaps a 30-30 isn’t as hard on cases as I’ve been told by some.
30-30 is only a couple years old to us. Never worn any cases out as they only get rotated once year. Since the rifle is in AZ and I’m in IL. People have told me they only get 3 to 5 reloads from a 30-30 case when using full power J-bullets. Perhaps that’s atypical? Or maybe there idea of full power is books max plus a couple clicks on the powder measure.

Below are some 30 caliber boolits. Now that ugly one on the right is unfinished as it's heading to the melt pot. From left to right in photo. Saeco 140gr #630, Saeco 150gr #316, My custom 180gr FN. RCBS 30-180-FN, Lyman 200gr #311299. My custom 180 actually weighs 180 grains then the RCBS 30-180-FN is next to it.
My 180 grain is an oversize. cast .312" with a bore ride tapered up to .302" in front of the drive band. Small for a 303 Brit but will shoot in worn out US 30's and i'ts worked in a 7.7 Jap. Should work in a RUS.

[Irascible]

Good information. Thanks. Could you compare the bulk of this powder to another currently available powder? I am interested in how much case capacity it will use up.

[Larry Gibson]

Lee 2.8 cc scoop one time through powder and then card scraped top;

LeveRevolution; 43.6 gr
H4895; 37.8 gr
H335; 42.1 gr

The listed load of LeveRevolution powder with the 150 gr PP bullet was 100% loading density in the 30-30 case. It was slightly up into the case neck.

Larry Gibson

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

very nice write up , i would be interested in the 165 170 gr numbers in lead if you ever get a chance

i like real numbers and tests great stuff

do you have any of the ranch dog 165 gr tumble lube gas checked boolits? that would be very interesting as i am looking at purchasing his mold when i can get the $ together.


how come no one ever told me in school that balistic scientist was a carreer field i would have been all over that.

[Larry Gibson]

No, I don't have the Ranch Dog 165. Though that is a nice bullet I've a very good Lyman 311041HP mold that is very hard to beat....at least I haven't found another cast bullet to beat it yet. I have a sililar GB 150 gr mould and it is also a very good buullet. Down the road I might have to test it also.

I would assume, based on experience, that the 165 RD cast bullet would do as well with perhaps a bit less psi as the 160 FTX bullet in the 30-30. If you a 12" twist 24" barrel then 2400+ fps with that bullet would be a deadly combination on deer for sure. A 10" twist Marlin 24" barrel might do okay also with that slow LeveRevolution powder. So much to learn, so little time.......

Larry Gibson.

[w30wcf]

That velocity is off the internet published data. Not my chronograph.
.......Note in my book says 35.0 gr WW760, 2080 fps at 35,100. 205gr cast Old West. Data from laodswap dot com. Maybe that’s your data?
Then in my reoladers reference data base there is a 150 grain bullet load from CastData R1. Win 760 - 36 grains - 1932 fps. As you know 36 grains is a case full. In one of my fired not sized Rem cases 36 grains is up in the neck until you vibrate it to settle. Which is probably what stops the 150 grain load from going higher.

The RCBS 30-180-FN seats below the neck to about the base of the shoulder. Mine weighs around 200 grains. One cast from 2/6 alloy is 191 grains naked before gas check and lube. From 50/50 alloy finished they are within a grain of 200. Seams like as much bullet as you’d want in a 30-30. 35 grains WW760 is about as much as will comfortably fit in most cases.

Perhaps a 30-30 isn’t as hard on cases as I’ve been told by some........

Gabby,
I had originally posted that data on the Beartooth Bullet forum in LoadSwap
http://www.loadswap.com/display.php?...rtridge_id=254
so it may have been reprinted substituting W760 for H414. The 2,080 f.p.s. was taken from the 26" barrel of my 1894-1994 Centennial rifle.

The reason the velocity is less with the lighter bullet is that there is not enough resistance to get the slower H414 / W760 to burn more efficiently.

My RCBS 180 weighs 188 grs. lubed and gas checked in w.w. + 2% tin alloy.
The gas check heel is not as long as the one on your bullet.

Regarding .30-30 cases, if a rifle as excess headspace, case separations are likely after a few loadings with factory equivalent reloads. The same can be said with other calibers / rifles as well.

I have some .30-30 cases that have seen 20+ reloadings that are still going strong.

Here's a pic of some of the heavy bulleted .30-30 cartridges I use.
The cartridge tested was number 3.



w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

GabbyM

Preliminary test today shows 35 gr load of 760 under your 197.2 gr cast bullet running at 2003 fps with 34,400 psi(M43) out of my 24" barreled M94AE 30-30. A 36 gr load running at 2047 at 36,100 psi(M43). Ten shot confirmation test strings are scheduled. Looks like the LeveRevolution powder may pick up 160 - 200 fps at same psi but test is too limited at this time to know. Just a heads up.

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Many thanks for your efforts and the data on the Leverevolution powder.

w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Many thanks for your efforts and the data on the Leverevolution powder.

w30wcf

I've confirmation 10 shot strings with the 311041HP and the 30-180-FN using the LeveRevolution powder and the 30-180-FN with 760 powder. Just waiting for a chance to test. Hopefully tomorrow or it will have to wait for 10+ days.

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you in advance for the data. You are breaking new ground with the LeveRevolution powder and heavier cast bullets.

I look forward to your test results.......

w30wcf

[Guzziac]

As I understand it the story on the new Hogdon Leverrevolution and Superperformance powders ties to a Mr. Emery . He was previously in the employ of NASA in propellants for rockets. Mr. Emery, working for Hornady, has developed these new powders in cooperation with Hogdon to do exactly what Larry's M43 has shown. They are specially formulated to delay peak preasure in the preasure curve. This has enabled an increase in velocity while staying within normal preasure maximums.
It is the technology behind the Hornady Light and heavy Magnum and Leverevolution products.
So far I've been sitting on the sidelines as I haven't purchased any of the new powders yet. My health keeps me throttled back considerable, and now the heat here in Louisiana has been running mid 80's at night and at and over 100 in the day. Add in a good supply of mosquitos and you get the picture, so maybe in the fall, if I can get feeling better , I'll give some a try in my Marlins.
Great work Larry, I'm very interested in the heavy cast 30-30 testing as I have the RCBS 30-180 and like it's design very much. Also please give us some feedback useing 170gr. jacketed in the 30-30 with the LR powder.
Guzziac,
Richard P.