Fackler sings the praise of the 147gr route for 9x19mm

[Larry Gibson]

As LE marksmanship instructor for the Oregon BPST and an officer survival trainer I studied lots of officer related shooting of both officers and bad guys. I also studied lots of civial shootings. Most gunfights are with and ended by cartridges most of us "kowledgeable" gunfighters consider as inappropriate and ineffective minor calibers or ammuntion. Most knowledgeable and trained persons who carry major caliber handguns for defence learn the first rule; stay out of a gunfight to begin with.

I learned one thing in particular; any gun is better than no gun regardless of the ammuntion in it. Most often the miscreants depart at the sight of their opponants handgun. Yes there are a few cases where a miscreant continued to cause problems after being shot with or at by anything but that is very, very rare. Taking Fackler's reports into context he was only looking for the instances of one shot stops with solid hits. His report does not note those cases of stops with 2-3 or more hits or even with misses that caused the miscreant to about face and depart.

Where is it written you have to stop shooting after just one shot anyway? The general concenses is to keep shooting until aggression stops and I concur with that. When an OSP Trooper I carried an issue Colt Trooper .357 Magnum with a M94 30-30 or M500 12 ga in the patrol car. When with a city angency I carried a M15 S&W .38 Special for 8 years with 125 gr +P JHPs or the 150 gr lead HP +P and a .380 AMT as a back up loaded with Winchester Silvertips. I felt comfortable with that but would have prefered my .45 Colt Commander that I carried with Speer 200 gr FATs off duty. When I went to a SO I carried a Series 70 Colt M1911 with just that ammo and my M1A in my patrol Blazer. I still carried the AMT Backup in a belly band inside my shirt around my Second Chance vest. I never really felt "undergunned" with any of them.

Back in the day when the 147 gr 9mms were the rage I tried them and found the better ones were almost identical to the 150 gr .38 lead HP +P loads in velocity and terminal performance out of a Browning HP and a M59. Not all that bad if the bullet is put in the right place but nothing to write home about either. I still have an unopened box of the Black Talon 147s. However, my CZ 75 9mm is currently loaded with 115 gr XTPs at +P+ velocity for home protection duty.

Like Charger I have numerous loaded guns stashed around the house. Some years back my wife complained about it and I put most of them in the gun safe. However shortly after there were a couple burglaries and car prowls in the neighborhood so she told me to stash them around the house again and made sure I trained her in the use of each. My Pare Ordnance P14 loaded with FAT rounds is my primary protection handgun these days but it is supplemented by the CZ75, Colt Cobat Commander, Series 70 M1911 and the M19 around the hose along with 1 shotgun, an AR, the M1 Carbine and the M1A. Some might say I'm paranoid but I've investigated to many crimes against persons so I just consider it all "insurance"

I still most often carry the AMY Backup with me in my back pocket or in a fanny pack when making a quick trip to the store. But when I go "out" or on a trip to certain parts of town or areas the Colt Combat Commander goes along loaded with Speer 200 gr FATs over 7.5 gr Unique as a carry gun. Sometimes the M1 Carbine goes along too as it is a lot less obnoxious in the public view than an "assault" rifle. Loaded with good soft points it is very effective as a personal defense carbine. On longer trips from home the M1A always goes along many times acompanied by an AR as "extra" and the M1 Carbine for the wife (she packs a 2 1/2" M19 with 125 gr Winchestern magnum JHPs in it). The Combat Commander goes along as a carry gun and the P14 resides in the 5th wheel next to the bed as "in house" protection, many times with the M1 Carbine next to it.

However, when out hunting for a handgun I many times just have a .32 (S&WL or H&R Mag), sometime a .44 Magnum, a .357 Magnum, a .41 magnum or a .45 AR or Colt with me. Frankly I feel comfortable with all of them, some more than others but I'm not going to quiver in my boots in front of some miscreant just because I have the lowly .32 S&WL with me. The miscreant will eat 6 rounds very quickly in the 10X if necessary if I gotten stupid and set the rifle down I always carry. More than likely I'll use the rifle to deal with trouble. That will be the miscreants problem, not mine.

Larry Gibson

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

I've carried many different rounds over my long career. Beginning with the feeble 38 Special 158 gr lead RN to the current issue of 40 S&W with Federal 180 Hydra-shock. Nothing has proven to be as reliable as the current issue. We carried the sub-sonic 147 HP and it was very accurate. However the results of quite a few shootings were less than inspiring. This was with the old bullet technology and no expansion occurred with any bullet that did not strike bone. Several were thru and thru shots almost exactly like the old RN lead out of the 38's. That being said, new 147's with the current technology may be perfectly adequate. During the past almost no HP in anything but a 357 Magnum expanded reliably. So bigger in diameter was always better. When the 9mm Hydra-shock ammo became available the 124 +P+ was issued. It was soon proven to be better than anything we had up to that point,save for 357 Mag with 125 HP's. It actually had a better stop ratio than a 357 Magnum with 158 HP's. One of the best things about it was it's recoil reduction as compared to the 357's. When the 40's became available they were issued and we have had few if any complaints. The ammo we carry expands great and the small lead post in the middle looks just like the photo's in the advertisements. Sadly we have had more shootings in the last 20 yrs than the previous 200+ yrs combined. Our agency was formed in 1775. I believe with the modern pistol bullet technology the 147 HP very well could be a viable alternative. I just have not seen any studies and /or actual use to substantiate that thought. In the meantime my Kahr 9mm is loaded with 124 +P. Today we have some of the best choices that have ever been offered.

Mike

[Bret4207]

I'm not sure, but someone mentioned recoil reduction I think. I know on our job the 357 was just too much for the girly boys and midget girly girls they started hiring. The 9mm was a response, in part, to that. When the 9mm turned out to not work so hot, even with the 124+P stuff they went to the 45 GAP. The 40 S+W had a sharper recoil and the 45ACP...well, we couldn't very well not take the little tiny little hands of the little people into account, so the GAP won out. Far as I know it works pretty good. I would still be okay with my old faithful 681 and the 158 SP ammo we had back in the distant past.

[Larry Gibson]

Bret

tssk...tssk...that's not very PC you know....can't be hiring people becuase they meet all the qualifications required of a job.......have to hire them to be PC........back "in the day" we hired people who could not only handle there personal sidearm but other as well and handle themselves in a weaponless confrontation without a SWAT team as back up.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

When I came on in 87 I was one one of the smaller guys at 5'10", the old timers were all from the era where you had to be at least 6 foot to apply. When I left I was above average height.

[luvtn]

1) This article is from the late 80's
2) Dr Fackler says the lighter bullet didn't expand and suffered a through and through killing a brother officer.
3) He advocates the 147 gr 9mm bullet that has even more penetration.
You can't have it both ways. That 147 grainer would have killed that officer also. IMHO
With the advances in metallurgy and bullet technology I believe the 115 gr is still up for the challenge of stopping BG. Federal 9BP rocks.
ll

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

[QUOTE=Bret4207;1241608]I'm not sure, but someone mentioned recoil reduction I think. I know on our job the 357 was just too much for the girly boys and midget girly girls they started hiring. The 9mm was a response, in part, to that.

I started in 75. Very true. We had people that were literally unable to qualify with the 357 duty carry ammo we had in the late 1970's to the early 1980's. After that we carried the miserable 38 Special 110+p+ stuff, but that is an entirely different story. The S&W 4" 13's we carried had some horrific muzzle blast and recoil with the 357 125 HP's. We still had a lot of one handed, both strong and weak hand, qualification stages at that time. These people had a lot of one on one time with the range officers(and 38 Special ammo probably) until they qualified. It was only in 87, when we got the 9mm's, that two handed qualification at all stages was mandated by the state training commission. I think that by its self increased the number of people who were able to qualify with carry ammo. Even with that we had people that had to be individually "tutored" to meet minimum standards. My bet is that every agency has it's own group that gets "tutored" and that "group" very closely mirrors those in every agency. My time has come and gone but I still like to reminisce at times.

Mike

[Bret4207]

The saying at our Academy was, "Kid, you wanna wear the big hat, you gotta shoot the big gun." Ie- if you wanted to earn the Stetson, you had to be able to qualify. The 681 was bad enough for the girly boys, you should have seen them with the Ithaca 37's!

[Geraldo]

Bret

tssk...tssk...that's not very PC you know....can't be hiring people becuase they meet all the qualifications required of a job.......have to hire them to be PC........back "in the day" we hired people who could not only handle there personal sidearm but other as well and handle themselves in a weaponless confrontation without a SWAT team as back up.

Larry Gibson

Larry, you mean they went on foot patrol alone, with no radio, and they handled whatever came their way? Oh, the horror...those guys were tough as nails.

I know on our job the 357 was just too much for the girly boys and midget girly girls they started hiring.

I knew one guy who was in a fight with a suspect and when another car rolled up with, shall we say, a new age officer, he got to his lapel mike and asked for "real" backup.

I also saw a show a couple years ago about LA County SO's academy. I know that they're hiring fodder to work their jail system and that a lot of them won't ever get to a car, but honestly I'd rather work alone in the worst barrio than have to worry about my "partner" shooting me by accident.

[mroliver77]

The little "nazi" Swat wannabe cops we have now( dressed in black, pant legs tucked into boots, leather gloves with no fingers) finger their weapon at traffic stops. They could not shine the shoes of the officers we had in the day. We live in a low crime county of 25,00 folks. The county seat is the biggest town with like 8,500 people. Maybe 5 murders in the last 50 years, a couple unarmed bank robberies and a fellow showing "Mr. Happy" to chicks at the grocery store. The police could not catch him but one girl smashed him(Mr Happy) with a can of soup. He was easy to ID then. lol Anyhow like said these were big men, fair, honest but one was stupid to mess with them. I think these kids now days watch too many tv cop shows.
I shot with a young border patrol agent. He was fast getting his Sig out and on a 3 yard target but 10 yards was his max range he shot at. I can see where most of his encounters would be at short range but he really sucked. I got out the .44 and he would not shoot it.

Jay

[Tracy]

A lot of those Nazi SWAT wannabes also have the attitude that if you're not a cop, you shouldn't have a gun.

[Geraldo]

A lot of those Nazi SWAT wannabes also have the attitude that if you're not a cop, you shouldn't have a gun.

That's way too simple of a statement.

There are a number of factors in play, just like there are with civilians. Cops that hated guns before being hired aren't going to fall in love with them when wearing a badge. People that came from a background where gun ownership was the norm aren't going to join the Brady Campaign. In urban areas where civilian gun ownership is restricted or prohibited, there will be a more hostile attitude toward civilian ownership.

[Bret4207]

Some of our MRT (SWAT) guys are the aloof/skinhead/bloused boots 24/7 types. Others are the nicest, most helpful and courteous guys you could imagine. They come in many types guys, just liek we do. The job kind of requires the type A personality I suppose. But just like with our Special Forces, Force Recon, Seals, Para-Rescue, etc. you tend to get "driven" people.

I can assure that were I still working I would much prefer to go to a bar/trailer park fight with the "Nazi" than the 102 lbs Prom Queen that won't get out of the car or the girly boy that is just dead weight.

[82nd airborne]

Some of our MRT (SWAT) guys are the aloof/skinhead/bloused boots 24/7 types. Others are the nicest, most helpful and courteous guys you could imagine. They come in many types guys, just liek we do. The job kind of requires the type A personality I suppose. But just like with our Special Forces, Force Recon, Seals, Para-Rescue, etc. you tend to get "driven" people.

I can assure that were I still working I would much prefer to go to a bar/trailer park fight with the "Nazi" than the 102 lbs Prom Queen that won't get out of the car or the girly boy that is just dead weight.

Id bring my mother. She is an amazing shot with here sp101, and several others from her collection. On top of that, I know she can hit pretty dang hard. Ive been hit with alot of mean blugeoning type devices, but no one ever hurt me as bad as she did, and she just had a fly swatter!
She runs a sawmill singlehandedly, runs a Sthill 066, and , well the list goes on. She's also pretty and can cook good. Id fight any sized man, for the right reason, (and would loose most of the time) but Id never fight my mother, or a woman like her. She intemidates the poo out of me.
Then again, Im a wimp of the highest order. Ive got two little readheaded girls, 2 and 3.5 years old, that bring my to my knees on a daily basis.

[9.3X62AL]

Ive got two little readheaded girls, 2 and 3.5 years old, that bring my to my knees on a daily basis.

Yeah, RIGHT! I'll bet they love and look up to their Dad.

[Duckiller]

One of my last full time jobs was working with LA Co.SO Traffic Officiers doing paperwork and traffic control for parades and the like. Worked with the East L.A. Traffic Sgt. soon after a shooting where Deputies shot deputies. His comments about hiring unqualified people and sending them out in the field poorly trained and supervised would register with several LEOs here. Neighbor got transfered from L.A. Co. Police to L.A.S.D. (police disbanded) ventured the opinion that recent academy graduated are trained to only work the jails, not work on streets. New hires spend 3-5 years in major jails dealing with not nice people. They are trained to deal with the inmates but they are not someone you would want to socialize with for very long. Out of the jails and with time in reasonable areas they eventually learn to deal with citizens in a reasonable manner.