Is 40 SW a good Boolit to cast?

[geargnasher]

I see I'm preachin' to the choir again!

Gear

[Doby45]

I wasn't gonna get into the details or the nay-sayers, I figured you would be along soon enough when it came to the 40cal.

[That'll Do]

Can I get an AMEN from the congregation???

AMEN!

I was hoping geagnasher would show up, the man know his stuff when it comes to cast and 40 S&W.

[BulletFactory]

Gotta agree with that, thanks for the help thusfar Gear. As soon as I get that barrel fixed, Im sure I'll be looking for your experience again.

[Bkid]

AMEN!! come on Preacher keep it coming!!!!!!!!
I have heard to much negative on the 40Sw,... yet I am one that you do not tell it can`t be done. I would like to thank all of you for the kind help and humor.
Billy

[Bkid]

I have loaded many 40SW rounds with store bought copper plated bullets,that was easy.So if cast is so much harder,why ?
I am thinking of using Vihtavuori 3N37 ,anyone use this powder? I hear it is very clean and works well with the 40SW. Any thoughts?

[sqlbullet]

I have loaded many 40SW rounds with store bought copper plated bullets,that was easy.So if cast is so much harder,why ?

I personally think it is because of the operating pressure of the cartridge. 35000 psi is well into the deformation range for most lead alloys. 38 special is dead simple for cast bullets, but 357 magnum offers additional potential challenges.

Same with 40 S&W and 10mm. Good fit, good lube, good barrel, and you are good.

If you have any variations in the fit, lube, barrel, they it can get problematic fast.

[geargnasher]

Deformation isn't something even factor in unless the gun tells me it needs a tougher or harder alloy. Richard Lee and I disagree on many things. However, the same things apply to the .40 that apply to any other cartridge using cast boolits, as stated so well above: Fit, lube, barrel all have to be good for it to work.

Many beginning casters can get themselves a basic setup, melt down some wheel weights and roofing boots, pour some half-decent boolits after a few rounds of casting, stuff them in their .45 ACP the next day with a sticky coat of LLA and enough 231 to barely make major, and have a ball at the range never knowing how many things they did "wrong" in the process. Some folks happily cast and shoot light loads in the "easy" calibers for years and never know (or their guns never make them NEED to know) any real specifics about what they're doing. I know firsthand what that's like, because that was my approach for many years, and with a qualtiy .38 Special revolver, a .30-30 Winchester, and low expectations, I was none the wiser. Some people expect light to moderate leading as a necessary evil of shooting lead and develop a fast and simple cleaning routine without ever knowing that a simple resolution of a fit or lube issue might completely fix it. These same people might then aquire a .40 or 9mm and do the same thing they always did, and then BAM! after a few rounts can't hit the paper, can't see the grooves in the rifling, and don't know what in the world they did wrong, not realizing that the sloppy fit, mystery alloy, marginal lube, and poor castings they've always used to good effect before won't cut it with the magnum-level cartridges.

Understanding that the .40 is a magnum level cartridge and all the things that go along with making cast boolits work at those pressures and launch conditions is key to getting in the right mindset to achieve success. Now, do you have to load it hot? NO. Just like the many people who reload 1,000 fps cartridges for their .357 Magnum revolvers you don't have to go wide-open all the time to shoot lead, and that makes things much easier. As long as the slide will cycle and the empties clear the gun, plinker-level cast boolit loads are a lot of fun to shoot and easy on the frustration meter.

Sometimes, though, the .40 just won't work with cast. Ask BulletFactory about his XD with no leade whatsoever. Won't work with cast no matter what you do except modify/replace the barrel. Another hiccup is that .40 brass is so short and has to be so freaking HARD to stand the high pressure in unsupported chambers, the part of the case that holds the boolit is hard enough to swage lead boolits way undersized and cause leading unless the undersized jacketed-bullet expander is replaced with a bigger one.. The .357 and .44 Magnums have long cases and a different anneal at the mouth, so the usual once or twice fired brass you pick up and stuff boolits into won't crush you boolits too badly even if they are a bit on the "green" (just cast, not allowed to age-harden) or soft side, and the standard .005-7"-under-boolit-sized-expander is used. The .40 and 9mm are the be-atches of boolit-squishing because of the hard "necks", and the Lee Factory Crimp Die with the post-sizing carbide sleeve that is so notorious for making good-fitting boolits into undersized lead-ers with one stroke of the press. Neither of this happens with the revolver magnums, and the .45 ACP brass is typically soft and thin enough not to be too much of an issue with typical undersized jacketed bullet expanders. Guess what? The .45 ACP operates at fully HALF the pressure of the .40, 9mm, and 10mm so the brass doesn't have to be as hard or thick, and often softer boolits can be seated in cases not expanded enough without getting smushed too badly, since the lead is strong enough to stretch the brass more as it shoehorns itself in. I've found that a custom expander spud is the single most important tool to have when loading the .40 with cast. While it is possible to load 24+ bhn boolits sized .002" or so over groove diameter (before seating) on top of stiff charges of powder and shoot them with little to no leading, my experience is that the accuracy won't be there because the consistency of diameter and amount of case swage from round to round varies too much. Best to expand the brass properly for the size and hardness of your boolits and then iron out any other wrinkles in the works, much better results to be had in the long run if you get fit and performance goals sorted out first.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

Just stick with it, other people do it, so you know it works. Im still going to make it work, you can be sure of that.

[Bkid]

Ok I`ll bite, what is a custom expander spud? What exactly does it do and how does it do it?

[BulletFactory]

It replaces the expander and puts the bell on the casemouth to seat the bullet easier. Deltaenterprises can make one for you. Its a little bigger in diameter than the origional, and prevents the case from swaging the bullet as it enters the case.

Its a good idea to measure the bullet, then seat the bullet, then pull it, so you can remeasure, and find out if there is a change.

IMO its a necessary piece of equipment for cast .40

[Bkid]

So sizing your bullets is not enough,you have to do this also, so you have more accurate shooting bullets. Wow that is all new information. I use a Lee Factory crimp die,and is this not good to use on the 40SW ? It worked great with the copper plated bullets. Sound like a hardness issue for sure. Since I am a jeweler I am going to look into copper plating from a company I have had a lot of plating done with. I will also talk to some people I know who load commercially.

[geargnasher]

The Lee FCD is no good with cast boolits if the die has the carbide sizing bushing in it like the sizer/decapping die does. Cast boolits are oversized and the ring will swage them to jacketed dimensions inside the case.

Gear

[a.squibload]

Gear: good explanation, thanks. I have only loaded a few 40s so far,
nowhere near factory energy, still would not want to get hit by one.
Accuracy was good by my informal test (cans got holes in 'em),
and all made the slide slide.
Previously only loaded "easy" cartridges, mostly 44 & 357/38,
usually didn't load them real hot and got acceptable results.

Shot some cast through my polygon barrel last weekend, about 10 rounds,
no leading, no kaboom, but they were relatively slow. Will look into a larger spud,
cast has got to be easier than swaging!
Of course I'll still swage too 'cause I like the way they look.

Lee FCD was a pain in the (choose body part) for crimping, switched to the RCBS.
I use the FCD to de-Glock brass, unless it's too beat up, then it becomes jackets.

[michiganvet]

I bought the lee 2cav TC 170 grain along with a sizing die and a set of loading dies even though I have nothing to shoot them in only because the wife brought home an awesome amount of once fired brass. I hope to run across a used camp carbine at some time in the future.

[BulletFactory]

Go to a gun buyback BS program, and pick one up there on the cheap. There is one coming up in Muskeegon.

[casterofboolits]

IMHO the 40 S&W if you pay attention to basics, is not rocket science. Slug the barrel, good lube, consistant loading pratices, and don't take it to the ragged edge. Some reloaders have the concept that only maximum loads will do. I'm a medium load guy and as long as the load functions the pistol, ejects the case, leading is minimal or nil and accuracy is what I consider acceptable, I'm a happy shooter.

A shooting buddy and I got the first two Tanfoglio 40 S&W pistols in the area. If you looked at the barrel hood at the right angle, you could just make out "9X21" where the etch had been buffed off.

We ordered 2,000 cases and 2,000 Winchester 155 grain TC condom bullets and started working up some loads. At the time I was also playing ith the 41 AE. The accepted gun rag wisdom at the time was that loading data for the 40 and 41 was interchangable.

I had a casting business at the time and was determined to cast for the 40 and 41. With the help of a friend with a machine shop, I had five small caliber Lyman four cavity moulds recut for 40 and 41 boolits. 40-145-TCPB and 41-165-TCBB and for a couple years I had a lock on these boolits. By mis communication, I ended up with three of the four cavity 41 moulds. But this made a nice plinking boolit for the 41 Mag.

I use a Lyman die set for the 41 AE and load my 40's on a Dillon SDB. No problems after a quarter century of loading the 40 S&W.

I also cast the Lyman #401638 40-175-TCBB and a friends son is on his second thousand thru his XD with no problems making IPSC major PF.

[gray wolf]

So far I have been doing OK following Gears advise and the suggestions of some others.
I have been loading tite group 3.8 grains for the 175 rcbs 38/40 bullet and the lee 175 TC.
Recoils like the 45 ACP with 4.3 grains of BE. function is great in the Beretta 96-- We just don't need to shoot max for 10,15, and 25 yard paper.
HOWEVER
I have cast some 200 grain ( read 205 grain ) RCBS SWC from a lend me mold and they are scary long bullets. It looks like very little room for any powder. I can load them to 1.140 OAL but it still looks like a bunch of bullet in the case.
I am a little worrisome about loading them. How do you all feel about this ? ( Gear ? )

[harley45]

So do you guys think the modified expander plug is a good idea for hot 10mm loads to?
I'm just starting to set up for 10mm casting.

[philthephlier]

My Beretta 96 has the following bore dimensions:

Bore .391
Groove to Groove .403

Bullets need to be no bigger than .401 to feed reliably so I was looking at .001" of air between each groove and the bullet without any bullet upset. I was shooting the Lee TL 175 SWC cast and sized to .401 and 13 BHN. It shot very well over 7.2 grains of HS-6. What I thought may have been some leading after 100 rounds was just smeared lube in the grooves. All came out with just a few strokes of a bronze bristle brush soaked in Kroil. I am guessing the bullet was still soft enough to obturate and fill the grooves.