A myth of tin separating lead.

[leftiye]

Not that I'm a saint by any stretch, but study the posters on this thread - you'll see who's got a bug up their a$$, and who's interested in a little learning.

[theperfessor]

Did somebody mention a dual PID controller for hotplate and lead pot control? Here's mine:

Dual PID Controller
http://www.lasc.us/DualPIDTempControl.htm

[acemedic13]

Medic, you are definitely defiant if you do not understand the difference. ... felix

I was just chipping at the stone felix......No harm intended.....

I am glad this post went up. I have learned a lot about fluxing, metalurgy, and the english language. AND I AM SERIOUS on all accounts. Sometimes even in the bad, there is a lot of good.

[45-70 Chevroner]

theperfessor: Thank you for posting the info on the PID unit. I was starting to get a little mad because no one would tell me what it was or is. After reading the artical from the web site you posted I could tell that I must have one. I can tell from the information provided that I have been casting boolits wrong all along and the only way to correct the problem is to get a PID unit "at all cost". I will be placing an order today. In the mean time I am going out in my reloading room turn all the lights off and sulk because of all the time I've wasted by not having one.

[geargnasher]

Chevroner, a PID temp controller is not essential to cast good boolits, although it helps. In the meantime, you can judge mould temp by the degree of "frosting" on the boolits, and pot temp with a $15 casting thermometer from one of the supply houses discussed in the casting equipment forum. If you get an extra casting thermometer or a replacement propane grill thermometer and and a steel electrical work box, you can make a mould oven on top of your hot plate and use the hot plate's thermostat and the grill thermometer to get your mould up to the temp you want it and keep it there during breaks, and keeping an eye on the pot temp thermometer will help you make thermostat adjustments to the pot control. Speeding or slowing casting pace will raise or lower mould temp, and observation of boolit "frost" after they have cooled for a minute or so will keep you in the ballpark there. Once you find the "happy spot" for your mould and alloy combination, take notes and try to maintaing that particular rhythm.

Gear

[ghh3rd]

What bothers me the most about losing tin while casting is losing consistency from boolit to boolit. I usually cast on the hot side, and feel that I have to flux often to keep my tin well distributed in the melt.

[rob45]

theperfessor: Thank you for posting the info on the PID unit. I was starting to get a little mad because no one would tell me what it was or is. After reading the artical from the web site you posted I could tell that I must have one. I can tell from the information provided that I have been casting boolits wrong all along and the only way to correct the problem is to get a PID unit "at all cost". I will be placing an order today. In the mean time I am going out in my reloading room turn all the lights off and sulk because of all the time I've wasted by not having one.

Chevroner,

As the saying goes, "In order to get somewhere, you have to know where you're going."
One may also infer that to mean, "Determine the result you want, then find your best available means of achieving that result."

This thread has taken many avenues, yet it is very informative in that it illustrates the fact that we all have differing objectives.

Do you need a PID unit? Only you can determine that.
I know a little about PID units, as I have some on my heat-treating ovens. But simply because I am familiar with their use does not mean that I possess sufficient electronics knowledge to build them or even accurately explain their operation.
In addition, theperfessor beat me to it before I got back online to catch up on this thread.

"Know where you're going."

As an example, theperfessor has been experimenting with his own line of molds for some time now. Anytime one embarks on such an endeavor, a primary goal is eliminating variables in order to reach accurate conclusions. He must determine which mold material, and the temperature of that material, functions best with a particular alloy at various temperatures. After that, he gets to do it all over again when the size of the mold cavity is changed. Then again when the alloy is changed.
The more tightly-controlled the parameters, the more accurate his determinations.

As another example, Felix mentions the use of a PID unit for his application. Please note that his application involves experimenting with the best method of intentionally including excess copper into his alloy.
The overwhelming majority of boolit casters live by the cardinal rule: "Excess copper is a sin." So why in the world would Felix be "going against the grain"? I'm not sure, but I suspect he is attempting to obtain optimum accuracy driving an itty-bitty cast bullet through a fast-twist barrel, and needs a "tougher-than-normal" cast bullet.
Going a different direction than others, Felix is at the disadvantage of learning from his own mistakes rather than the mistakes of others. This is always a difficult road, yet it is exactly how we obtain knowledge in the first place. Either we learn from our individual experiences, or we learn from those who already have the experience.
Were I in a similar situation, rest assured that I would be very methodical during the entire process, and a PID unit would be deemed prudent simply to better control the temperature variables. Just one of many actions taken to "shorten the learning curve".
However, I am not in a similar situation, and therefore do not currently need a PID unit.
So, do you need a PID unit simply because others do? Maybe, maybe not. Are you "going the same place" they're going?


Your thread initiated with an illustration of tin separation from lead being a myth rather than fact. On a forum such as this, that is naturally a hot topic.
But one must always keep in mind the differing objectives.
Here are some examples of differing objectives (names inserted merely for purposes of illustration):

A. Johnson Metals receives a huge shipment of scrap lead. Out of this shipment, they need to reclaim pure lead.

B. Charles shoots BPCR. He has been using 30:1 alloy, but notices that other people shooting his same cartridge are getting better results with 20:1 alloy.

C. Fred is having problems with his mold filling out when he casts his bullets. His shooting buddy told him that a small amount of tin would help him cast better bullets.

D. Jason is wanting to prove that a cast bullet can be made which will perform well in an application which others state is impossible. He enjoys the challenge, and has a naturally inquisitive nature. He knows he can somehow make it work.

E. Jerry shoots jacketed bullets. He does not cast, but his deceased uncle left him a thousand pounds of lead and associated alloys, plus a lifetime's worth of equipment.
Jerry attempts to sell the material; no bites. Then a prospective buyer comes along and says, "I know very little about making different alloys with what you have. I shoot a lot, and Dad used to cast bullets out of Lyman No.2 for me. Can you use what you have to make me 500# of Lyman No.2 instead?"

F. Bob is a hunter who is looking for a tougher cast bullet. He gets great expansion, but has also noticed a lot of bloodshot meat due to fragmenting. He heard somewhere experimenting with various amounts of tin may help him out.


Breaking the objectives down further:
A. Johnson Metals will use a method to thoroughly separate the tin from the lead.
B. Charles will create his own 20:1 alloy. He will do everything in his power to ensure it is "20:1", rather than closer to 25:1. Due to the nature of his hobby, Charles shoots a lot of big, heavy bullets. Tin is his most expensive component, and now he's frustrated that he may need to use more of it. So he needs to be sure he is not "wasting" it.
C. Fred does not care how much tin is truly in the alloy. He simply wants to produce better bullets as quickly as possible and get back to the range. He adds a little bit of tin, and it works great for him.
D. Jason is most definitely concerned with making his alloys as exact as possible. He will control every aspect of the casting process to the best of his ability.
E. Jerry has everything needed to make the No.2 alloy. Now he needs to ensure that his prospective buyer is actually going to be receiving Lyman No.2, rather than some mixed-up scrap that is simply called such.
F. Bob finally found an alloy that works for his favorite hunting rig. The problem he now faces is accurately duplicating the same alloy for next years hunt.

Please take note of point C. Fred is probably not concerned with an exact amount of tin in the alloy. His only concern is the production of "better" bullets. His method of "knowing how much tin is in there" is finding out when the bullets "don't come out looking as good".
Does this mean that Fred's methods are "wrong"? For his application, NO. Fred is accomplishing his objective with minimum "fuss".


In conclusion, always know firsthand what it is you wish to achieve, then find your best method of achieving it. In retrospect, realize that others may wish to achieve different objectives, and will probably have differing methods of accomplishing them.
Such conditions make it very difficult to state outright that anyone is "wrong".

Good Luck,
Rob

[geargnasher]

Good illustrations, Rob.

Gear

[lwknight]

Ye see, all it takes is a little cabin fever and a redneck like me to light the fire and we all learn something.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I think that I have learned several very important lessons from this Thread and the posts there in.
1. keep my mouth shut about tin and lead separating or not separating.
2. Pay more attention to heat control.
3. I probably don't need a PID controller.
4. And lastly don't trust Google as it will get you in trouble.
All kidding aside, This is a great forum. I have learned a lot on it. This is truly the "go to" site for BOOLIT casting and there are a great bunch of guys here, yes even you lwknight. Old habbits are hard to break but I am trying.