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I have recently acquired a Colt Army Special in 41 Colt. It is from around 1909, and except for the caliber it's a match for my newer Official Police. I am looking for a decent load for it, as it is stronger than the colts the 41 was introduced in. I have 100 heeled, 200 grain round nose bullets to start off with. I also have a brass MIHEC hollow base/flat base mold I haven't broken in yet. Any suggestions?
So for the heeled bullets, you will most likely have to shorten the brass to fit in the army special. You won’t have to trim the brass for the hollow base bullets. Remember to cast the hollow base bullets soft. In fact, the heeled bullets cast soft is good as well. I’ve had my best results with bullseye at 3.0 grains. The older manuals showed 3.5 grains as max. That’s a big difference and it shows when you pull the trigger. The forcing cone is pretty thin on the Army special so if you go up from the 3.0 grain load, maybe go in .2 increments.
I’ve had ok,success with sizing the case and pressing the heeled bullet ( Lyman’s 386177) into the case. This provides a good enough tension for powder ignition. Both of my army specials and my 1902 bisley have groove diameters close to .409. With that said the hollow base bullets cast soft will expand from .386 to that diameter good enough for acceptable accuracy out to 25 yards.
Old West Molds has modified Lee crimpers to crimp the heeled boolit. If you trim your brass for the heeled boolit let Bernie know the length of your brass. I use Lee Alox for my heeled boolits and don't have to worry about sticky lube.
I shoot several Colts revolvers chambered in 41 LC.
My best accuracy in my Army Specials (so far) has been with 200 grain Bear Creek Supply heel based boolits using 4.3 grains of Alliant Unique and old semi balloon head cases from Western Ammunition.
I do not have to trim my brass with the Bear Creek Supply bullets.
Heres a pic of the bullets I use alongside a loaded round:
https://i.postimg.cc/jSd2M507/IMG-0147.jpg
Group size with my two Army Specials is “ok” and at 18 yards (shooting from the bench) using the aforementioned Western brass and the Bear Creek boolits I can consistently keep 5 rounds into 1.5” but I always get at least one flier:
https://i.postimg.cc/VkGN6zyj/IMG_0145.jpg
Accuracy with that same load and Starline Brass isn’t nearly as good with my best 5 going into about 2.5”at the same distance:
https://i.postimg.cc/MGnpfgxg/IMG-0146.jpg
I have used commercial 200 grain hollow based boolits but they were too hard for the skirt to obturate properly (regardless of propellant used smokeless or black powder) and I’d get at least one round that would keyhole at 18 yards and (of course) accuracy was poor.
Gratuitous pics of my 41 Colts:
6” Army Special dates from 1912
https://i.postimg.cc/NG6fX6qG/IMG-0144.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/J0LrgnJW/IMG-0141.jpg
4” Army Special dates from 1914
https://i.postimg.cc/Xvt7fxYq/IMG-0142.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/RhLSzBQJ/IMG-0143.jpg
Ancient Colt MODEL 1892 New Army & Navy commercial model dates from 1898 (refinished)
https://i.postimg.cc/BZd2TZYr/AD27B3...9F5BD51A7D.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/XNZwBB8K/2C7C63...87E2619D8B.jpg
I’m loading my ammo using Redding Dies and I use an Old West Bullet Molds heel based crimp die (a must to keep hell based bullets properly tensioned in the case mouth).
Good luck and let us know how your Army Special does accuracy wise.
Work up to that 4.3 grain charge of Unique slowly.
That charge a safe in my Army Specials but waaaaaay too hot for the old Model 1892’s.
That group fired with my 1892 was with 18 grains of 3F Goex and 195 grain hollow based .386 diameter boolit at 10 yards (double action).
Shooters of the 1892’s need to tread lightly when using smokeless powder as those old revolvers are somewhat fragile.
Dr.
Your Army Special 6 inch from 1912 is a dead ringer for mine from 1909. I was lucky enough to find a set of Redding 41 Colt on evil bay for a great price, and am using them to reform 38 Special brass.
If you get the time, let us know how the reformed 38 special cases work for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGM5091
Like I said (accuracy wise) my luck with Starline brass in 41 Colt hasn’t been all that good so far with the loads I’ve tried.
I was fortunate enough (many years ago) to pick up several boxes of factory loaded (in Starline Brass) Precision Cartridge ammo from a gunshow vendor that was going out of business for an excellent price (in fact, I bought the ammo before I even had a handgun chambered for it).
https://i.postimg.cc/ht8qsW7t/AE368C...AF952D55D1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/mgWs72kn/0E052B...3A190B516A.jpg
When I finally got a revolver chambered in 41 colt and chronographed that Precision Cartridge ammo, it was running at about 550 fps with fairly wide extreme spreads and standard deviations.
I was fortunate to buy a singe box of that old Western Cartridge corp 200 grain copper washed ammo and that stuff was hot by comparison with velocities running 770 fps and way better standard deviation’s and extreme spreads and decent accuracy.
Sadly, the primers in half that old ammo were as dead as Julius Caesar.
I did break the duds down and reprime them adding fresh powder as well and they (of course) worked fine.
https://i.postimg.cc/y6cqjWdN/IMG_1587.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/T32ZT9cy/IMG_1586.jpg
Loaded with 4 grains of that straw colored powder (whatever that was) it was fairly snappy in that 4” Army Special.
My Unique load using 4.3 grains runs about 750 fps.
Please report back with how your 38 special brass woks for you.
I have a Colt New Navy chambered in 41 LC that is the identical same as a New Army other than the grips. I've been reloading Western cases with a 195 grain heeled bullet over 3.5 grains of Unique. Accuracy is good considering all the negatives.
I tried some with Bullseye and was rewarded with a dirty revolver.
I too use the factory Crimp die from Old West that is made by Lee for them.
My bullets came from Old West too.
Your Colt New Navy appears to be in fine condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall
The fire blue screws and trigger really set it off visually.
These are the two bullets I am presently using in my Uberti. The one on the left is the heel based bullet from an Accurate 4 cavity mold. It casts a 200 gr bullet using pure lead. I trimmed the Starline brass to 1.10 to just allow the heel based bullet to fit in the cylinder and allow it to rotate. I size the heel based bullet to .402 for the cylinder throats. The bullets are crimped using the Old West full length crimp die. The bullets are lubed using a q-tip dipped in Lee liquid ALOX. The bullet on the right is a hollow based bullet from an MP two cavity mold. It casts a 198 gr bullet using 1-30 alloy. The bullets are lubed in an RCBS Lube a matic with SPG and a .388 sizing die. I used the Starline brass full length. The bullets are seated and crimped using a Redding seating die. All sizing and expansion are done using the Redding die set.
Attachment 314561
I think it was unfired when I got it last year. I bought the box of ammo maybe 40 years ago at a gun show. Dealer was getting rid of a lot of obsolete calibers. I think I paid about $40 for maybe 125 rounds in various calibers. It turned out to be a decent investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATCDoktor
So far I've shot it maybe 100 rounds. It's pretty much a pipsqueak caliber. I understand why it went away.
I am slowly venturing into making 41 Colt ammo using 38 Special brass, WW231, and heeled bullets. The first go-round was with 3.5 grains. The brass expanded down to the head on some, leaving a pregnant looking two diameter case. The expanded portion of the cases varied in length, probably because I don't yet have a crimping die. I have also tried cutting the expanded part of a case off and slipping it over a 38 case before expanding the case. It looks much better, and when fired it fits over the none landing case head, giving me a single diameter case from mouth to rim. I am going to try Unique and Herco powders after I come up with a way to crimp my brass better.
That precision cartridge ammo is poor quality. The bullets barely made it out of the barrel and in a cowboy match, one stuck in my barrel. And he didn’t honor his warranty. He told me to pull the bullets and reload myself. Be careful.
If you buy the proper heel base bullets you will have better accuracy and easier reloading. You will need the Lee crimp tool from Old West. Link: http://www.westernbullet.com/ly3gr10.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by barkerwc4362
I recently picked up a MP hollow based mold for the 41 Colt. It is brass, a thing of beauty, but nothing I have any experience using. I have been following MP's instructions, and hope to begin casting soon. Thus far, my experiences with heeled bullets has been abysmal. My cases, on the other hand, have worked well. The 38 Special brass, whether used with or without brass rings at the base, are on their third reload without a problem. Apparently the brass rings improve the looks of the case more than anything else.
I have just joined the .41 Long Colt funny farm, and am debating about the .38 spl brass route, or something else. Can't find any Starline brass at the moment, even at crazy prices. Message me if you have a lead.
SGM5091 - has your casting gotten any better? What type of alloy you using? Flux is your friend when it comes to hollow base molds in my experience, and you really have to get the mold warmed up and be patient. I have the same mold headed my way...so we'll see how it goes.
What gun did you get?Quote:
Originally Posted by 32-20
Starline has them backordered so I would get on the list and stock up. They should be producing them on a not to long basis but I have been waiting on some brass for two or so years now. I try and stock up before I need it. Doesn't always work that way but oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by 32-20
folks, be aware that Starline brass uses 38 Special shell holder. The older 41 Colt brass uses a different shell holder.
Maybe not!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall
Hatcher pegs the 195 grain 386177 over 3.0 grains of Bullseye at 700 f/s from a 6" barrel. (Textbook, p 362). That should be good for at least 2 feet of bare gel penetration and maybe about 30 grams of wound mass in the first 15 inches.
Elmer's take: "...the .41 long with its blunt nose 200 grain bullet is an excellent man-stopper, far better than any loading of the .38 Special." (Sixguns, p 280).
Given that Keith wasn't shy about straining a .38 Special, that should lift 41 Long Colt out of the pipsqueak category.
Reference load data:
This is 10 rounds of 41 Colt loaded with a 200 grain .386 diameter hollow based bullet and 4 grains of Red Dot fired off the bench at 15 yards thru an ancient (albeit refinished) SAA and 60 year old eyes:
https://i.postimg.cc/q7ff3QtK/IMG_9710.jpg
I’ve fired this load out of my Army Specials and it’s not quite as accurate but it’s safe.
I would not fire this load in a 1892 New Army DA chambered in 41 Colt as it’s too warm.
I got a 1906 vintage commercial Colt 1892 model, but it has a broken leaf spring on the 2nd cylinder bolt stop. Appears to be a common problem looking online, but looks like NOS parts can be found, or made from some simple spring shim stock. I hope it shows up this week at my LGS, but likely next week before I see it. Bore looks promising with only a couple of pitted spots about half way down....it is a 4 inch. barrel. My Redding dies came today and look very nice, hollow base bullet mold should be here tomorrow...so getting there. Was tempted to order the replacement spring, but decided to wait and see if there are any other parts to replace while I'm in there.
Question - I'm a little low on Bullseye and Unique powders....anybody used Titegroup? My guess is that a "similar" charge for a .38 Special target load would be in the same class?
If your revolver was made in 1906 it is not a Colt Model 1892. It is more likely a Model 1901 or Model 1903. It should have the Colt "VP" stamp on the forward end of the L/H trigger guard signifying it was proofed with smokeless powder.Quote:
Originally Posted by 32-20
I do not believe there are any published loads using Titegroup powder for a 41 LC.
Tall - Yes you are correct, 1903 model, it does have the VP stamping.
Well then it is safe to use (max) 3.0 grains of Bullseye, 4.0 grains of HP38 or W231, or 5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet. Use original cases, I have not tried a Starline case but I hear they are not too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by 32-20
I back ordered some Starline, may start out with reforming .38 special. So far, original cases are a little too rich for me from what I have found.
It's not an Army Special either. It is either a Colt New Army or a Colt New Navy revolver. The Army Special came later. You need original cases or accuracy will suffer.