To say I am discouraged is an understatement

You get you a small hotplate from Walgreens and you will NOT be disappointed. It changed how I cast completely. I seriously set the mold on the plate and turn it on HI when I turn on my Lee pot. BY the time the pot is ready that mold is beggin for some lead to be poured in it. And other than thinking I may be running my lead a tad too high, I cast keepers from the very first pour. Even with my Mihec molds.

For the record I use an old circular saw blade on the hotplate as my surface to rest the molds on. The handle pivot bolt props perfectly on the tip of the blade and holds the molds flat on the surface. I will get a pic for ya when I get home.

If the sprue from the first boolit is solid before you finish pouring the last one, THE MOULD AND SPRUE PLATE ARE TOO COLD.

I can't iterate enough how important it is with aluminum gang moulds to have them HOT. You might think it's hot at 200*, but it won't throw good boolits. Then you turn up the pot, thinking hotter alloy will help, add tin, clean the mould, bore out the sprue plate holes, and still have troubles. Preheat the mould to at least 400* on a hot plate or whatever, then adjust your casting rhythm to maintain that temperature. At 400*, if you don't have a good way to tell, the sprue on a Lee gang mould will take about five seconds to set after poured if you'r using WW alloy plus a little tin at 650* Straight WW at 750 will take a little longer.

Gear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doby45

You get you a small hotplate from Walgreens and you will NOT be disappointed. It changed how I cast completely. I seriously set the mold on the plate and turn it on HI when I turn on my Lee pot. BY the time the pot is ready that mold is beggin for some lead to be poured in it. And other than thinking I may be running my lead a tad too high, I cast keepers from the very first pour. Even with my Mihec molds.

For the record I use an old circular saw blade on the hotplate as my surface to rest the molds on. The handle pivot bolt props perfectly on the tip of the blade and holds the molds flat on the surface. I will get a pic for ya when I get home.

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OOOH, SUPER idea about the old saw blade, I was going to make one of those ovens our of an electical box like someone did on the Special Projects forum, but I already use an inverted coffee can with a cut in the side of it, just needed a base for it, and a sawblade would be perfect.

Gear

All that is great if you understand what you said. Ternary this, and binary that don't make a hill of beans to average Joe caster. Average Joe should be able to go through a process of elimination when coming into a problem. What I am trying to say is that boolit casters routinely make simple problems into a series of highly sophisticated WAGS about what is actually going on. Mold wrinkly = Mold cold? Alloy cold? Not enough tin? mold dirty? alloy contaminated? mold not vented properly? Go down the list from easiest to fix to hardest. It ain't rocket science...thank the Lord.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geargnasher

I already use an inverted coffee can with a cut in the side of it, just needed a base for it, and a sawblade would be perfect.

Gear

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And I never thought about putting a coffee can on top of it. Now I gotta find me a coffee can. WOOOOHOOOOOOOOO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geargnasher

One more thing, about thermometers: If you're using one to determine the ideal alloy temp for casting, how do you know beforehand what temp you are wanting to achieve? Do you say "alloy X that I'm using right now needs 725* for good boolits in X mould"? If you do, you've likely found the sweet spot between mould and alloy and documented it. This is the only real application for a themometer, Duplicating sweet spots.

Gear

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Actually, in all seriousness and with (most) all joking aside, that is precisely what I use my thermometer for.

I've written here on various occasions how I segregate and organize my different ingots of different alloy blends. I know what kind of temps I need with which alloys and which molds to give me ideal casting production.

I learned that from a fellow who isn't around here anymore, Floodgate.

On another note, I've been lurking here before this place (officially) became Cast Boolits. Some of the folks I have learned the absolute most from include, but are not limited to:

Rick (CBRick)
Bret (Bret4207)
Waksupi
Ken (45Nut)
Felix
Carpetman
Junior
Beagle
Chargar
Larry Gibson
35 Remington
Glen
Buckshot

There are others, of course, but the above make up an encyclopedic base of knowledge and experience that is simply unmatched anywhere in the casting and shooting world.

And I am 100% guilty of that myself as well. We all have our days and our moments.

But at the end of the day, there is incomprehensible knowledge and experience here to learn from. But these folks will also be the first to tell you, "If it works, then what can we say?"

I often kid and joke about the "mysticism" surrounding casting boolits, but it is truly where science meets art meets technique. The "mysticism" for me comes when there are things I simply cannot explain.

If I were smarter, I'd turn to the masters here along with Glen Fryxell and I'm positive I could have my mysticism turned into rational explanations.

But sometimes, you know, the mysticism is more fun. :)

:coffee:


Sometimes they will come across as gruff and sarcastic or smart-alecky, an

Recluse, what is more fun are the esoteric rituals revolving around the simple act of making boolit lube. I've found chanting in Swahili to be particularly useful to get the subgods of the lube world to smile upon me. That and sacrificing a rubber chicken beforehand :kidding:

Gear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Suo Gan

All that is great if you understand what you said. Ternary this, and binary that don't make a hill of beans to average Joe caster. Average Joe should be able to go through a process of elimination when coming into a problem. What I am trying to say is that boolit casters routinely make simple problems into a series of highly sophisticated WAGS about what is actually going on. Mold wrinkly = Mold cold? Alloy cold? Not enough tin? mold dirty? alloy contaminated? mold not vented properly? Go down the list from easiest to fix to hardest. It ain't rocket science...thank the Lord.

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The basic problem is that Joe Caster is perfectly capable of understanding all this quite well, it's just that because it involves a couple of new words and some concept involving basic chemistry people automatically shut down with "no way I can understand anything that complicated" and then one is self-condemned to ignorance, mysticism, and confusion. This isn't complicated, just misunderstood.

Alloying an casting boolits requires no more brainpower, education, or knowledge of material handling than it does to be able to make a batch of biscuits plus a little more knowledge of safety practices, but you throw a college word in there and some people throw up their hands screaming. Maybe it could be explained in more common language, and that would be just fine, but there exists already the proper or accepted terminology and I feel that perhaps we should take the approach of expanding our knowledge to meet the task rather than going to such extremes to keep our knowledge and vocabulary level. Don't blame me, I can't help that I come from a long line of teachers of Kindergarten through college!

I was explaining the properties of boolit metals so that people could see, and hopefully understand, exactly WHY it is that folks like Rick, Bret, and myself give the advice we give. We, along with many others here, understand what is going on from a practical and scientific perspective, and while none of us will claim to be the Dog's Gift to boolit casting, there are very good reasons why we dispense advice and stand behind what we say. Old wive's tales get blown to smithereens with a little proper application of scientific reasoning, chemistry, and the laws of physics.

And like Sundog says, "It ain't rocket science, it's boolit science!"

Gear

Must the chicken be rubber, or is latex a good substitute? :)

OK, sounds like the crux is that the big gang mould is just simply too cold, and a cheapie hot plate will help. Just to remove any doubt, I buy a hot plate, heat it with the mould sitting flat on it, or on it's side, to get the sprue plate too, let it heat for how long, then grab and go? Hot plate next to the pot, make it convienant?

My mold heater...

$10 hotplate from Walgreens
Old saw blade.
Coffee can I just found in my garage.

This is how my mold/molds rode on the hotplate prior to finding my coffee can. ;)

http://i54.tinypic.com/34ss17p.jpg

Shows how the hinge pin bolt actually rests on the blade.

http://i52.tinypic.com/oqvkat.jpg

Finally, this is with the addition of my new coffee can lid, thanks to gearnasher's suggestion.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2rmb049.jpg

PERFECTION!

Gear

Actually, I now need to dial a temp in for my burner. Before I just turned it on full burn and by the time the pot was hot, my mold was hot and could cast immediately. NOW, the coffee can lid/oven enclosure does such a good job heating the mold that my first cast keep the sprue liquid for approx 2 minutes and it only cooled down when I sat the mold on the concrete floor in the garage. WAY to hot, next time I will try the medium setting. ;)

It has to be hotter than dutch love inside that tiny oven..

Armoredman up late read through this post some where you said you were swirling it around.Or
something like that . When I cast out of my lee bottom pour pot I have found now to me that a cigar box under the spout or something that you can set the mold on that brings it very close but not touching the spur plate gets me better results.Because I kind of have tremors but holding the mold still and having inline so you just slide from hole to hole kind of front to back or back to front works for me. I just today finished doing 600 -152 gr 311 dia and 500- 180 gr 311 dia that look pretty good to me .But then again I don't see that well which sometimes is a good thing . Going to shoot them in my SKS and my SAKO FINNISH whatever it is 762x54
rimed loaded with trail boss because that 762x 54 bruises me with all the blood thinners I'm on. If you want a hand full of them let me know cast with a lee mold smoked ?I was married 37 yrs have to follow directions it's habit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CJR

Time to roll another grenade into the room about smoking moulds to improve booliit quality.

For the record, old Schuetzen riflemen often smoked their bullet moulds to produce better bullets. Some of their record cast bullet groups still stand today. Also, the National Rifle Association did testing on smoking bullet moulds to improve bullet quality. The NRA found and documented that smoking a bullet mould DID improve the quality of the bullets, see NRA's Cast Bullet Handbook, pg.81. In my view, the NRA did more important research into cast bullet research than anyone I'm aware of.

When I started bullet casting in 1956, every now and then I would encounter a problem mould. I tried every solvent or cleaning solution/technique available to clean the problem mould. When I read the NRA article on smoking the mould, I tried that and it worked for me. So I'm a believer in smoking moulds and use it all the time. But that's been my experience. Use whatever cleaning procedure works for you.

Give me a minute to get my helmet on and get down behind this rock before all the incoming rounds. I'm ready, let the barrage begin.

Best regards,

CJR

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No one has any more respect for Col Harrison, Pope, Zischang, Barlow, etc. than I. But, we gain knowledge through he years. One of the really neat things about this site is the wives tales we laid to rest and new view we've gained. Smoking often works to mask the problem, but the problem remains. Same with the wives tales about needing harder alloy to reduce leading. It's just not that simple.

No offense intended or taken.

Bret, you've offered up an opinion that smoking a mould only masks a problem. Well, I've been at this casting thing for awhile, too. While I basically agree that many moulds need a little TLC on arrival into the fold, I have also have some that continue to demand attention well past any others. Here's my take. The material used to cut the mould is not always perfect. The surface of the cavity can have 'micro interuptions' either by method of cutting, the tooling itself, the metal, or any number of other reasons. They might not hold and release heat consistently. These moulds can make 'perfect' boolits, but never cast a really good one when absolutely clean down to the metal surface. I have a few like this that are quality moulds and refuse to work well when clean. When treated with smoke, pencil coloring, or the q-tip rub-down with release agent, voila. And by the way, with the measuring tools I have, I cannot tell in the least than anything detrimental effects the diameter - in fact fill out and detail improves. In conclusion, it is my studied experience that every mould, as every every barrel and chamber, as every action, is different. My job is to make it all work. To do that, I often need an array of tools and methodologies. As a parting example, I have a few moulds that work absolutely bestest on cool rainy days, or as Felix has explained to me, an evaporating atmosphere. I am sure that there is a perfectly suitable scientific explanation for this other than Voodoo, and that's fine. If I tried to compare all of the world's snowflakes, I would not have time to shoot. Actually that would be the edge of insanity, same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

edited: after thinking about that, he may have said condensing atmosphere. No bother, it is cool, rainy days that work best, and since I am neither a metalurgist nor a meteorologist, and don't play one on the internet, well, no bother.

Corky, no argument on the practical side of things, but the "what" that smoking masks...that's the key, isn't it? Just as some moulds really need a ladle with a particular guy and particular alloy or your moulds that want to work best in certain weather, it's the variations in individual moulds or casters that produce these anomalies. Smoking, or even using mould release works for some people, for others it's just a bandaid. I don't expect anyone to change anything they do, but the basic idea that smoking covers up a problem seems pretty common sense to me.

My experience is that smoking does produce smaller boolits. Again, maybe that's part of individual variance, but a half a thou or so over 10-15 examples over several moulds seems pretty conclusive to me.

armoredman:

Call me simple but as I said before heat is your friend in my opinion ~ both mould and lead.

The hotplate will help for sure and good hot lead will too. If my sprue hardens before I put down my ladle my opinion is that the mould and/or lead are too cool and I generally find that boolits are wrinkled or have rounded edges.

As mentioned, I have a two burner propane stove and the mould gets heated on a pice of 3/16" steel plate while lead is melting.

Not very scientific but if spit or water on the end of my finger doesn't sizzle like on a pancake griddle the mould is not hot enough.

I find the NOE aluminum and Mihec brass moulds require even more heat to cast well but they do cast well for me. I thought that pointy little nose on the NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. would be a problem to fill but when the mould and lead are hot they come out great.

Don't give up, you will get it. Lots of good advice in this thread.

Longbow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by longbow

Call me simple but as I said before heat is your friend in my opinion ~ both mould and lead.

The hotplate will help for sure and good hot lead will too. If my sprue hardens before I put down my ladle my opinion is that the mould and/or lead are too cool and I generally find that boolits are wrinkled or have rounded edges.

I find the NOE aluminum and Mihec brass moulds require even more heat to cast well but they do cast well for me. I thought that pointy little nose on the NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. would be a problem to fill but when the mould and lead are hot they come out great. Longbow

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Longbow, let me ask a question.

Is it possible to have the pot/alloy temp at a temp that's healthy for the alloy (under 750 assuming a Pb/Sn alloy) and at the same time have the mold at a proper casting temp?

Or to put it another way, is it necessary/needed to increase the pot/alloy temp to increase the mold temp?

Or another way, is it possible, if your mold casts well with a mold temp of 425 (as an example) to keep your mold temp at 425 with an alloy/pot temp of 700 degrees? Is it necessary/needed to crank up the pot temp to get/keep the mold temp at the proper casting temp of 425?

An indisputable fact: A Pb/Sn alloy will cast exceptionally well at 700 degrees which is well over 100 degrees over it's liquidus temp and yet well under 750 degrees. Don't confuse liquidus temp with melting temp. Melting temp is the temperature which the alloy begins to melt. Liquidus temp is the temperature at which all of the metals in an alloy are completely melted. Melting temp is easy to know, it's the temp where you can see the alloy begin to melt. It's from difficult to impossible for a bullet caster to know an exact liquidus temp with a given alloy. This is the reason I use 700 degrees as a casting temp, it is over the liquidus temp and plenty hot to cast exceptionally well.

With 700 degree alloy/pot temp it is extremely easy to get your mold up to and even well past it's ideal casting temp.

For well cast bullets it's the mold temp, not the alloy/pot temp that will get you the results your looking for.

Rick

Smoking a moulds cavities may mask a problem, but (BS word) it also solves the problem. Lyman moulds ( I have about 70 four cavity) almost always have to be smoked to produce good boolits.

I'm not talking casting a few hundred or a couple thousand either. In one nine month period I handcast 50,000 38-158-RNPB for 38S IPSC shooters and a distributor in Toledo. I averaged 50,000 plus per month. I used three four cavity Lyman moulds and could empty a 10 kilo RCBS pot in twenty minutes, approx. 500 boolits. Fill the pot with alloy and start on the second 10 kilo pot that was ready to go. When the second pot was done, the first was ready to go. I normally cast eight to ten pots a day. Paid all the bills till I found another job.

The Lyman moulds would not, NOT, cast a good boolit until they were smoked. An old wives tale? Not in my experience. This includes H&G, Saeco, and Lee. IMHO, Bic is my friend.

Too much build up is not good, so I clean my moulds before I smoke them a second time. I clean my moulds with a diluted solution of Dawn and a tooth brush. Otherwise, you get undersize boolits.

Smoking moulds works for me, so I'll stick with it. YMMV

Has the barrage of incoming rounds stopped yet? I think I hear more rounds on the way. I'd better play it safe and stay behind my rock!

Best regards,

CJR