Isit worth Powder Coating apart from purely cosmetic reasons?

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

in my experience powder coating is time consuming + expensive + shows not one single advantage in any way over properly applied liquid alox + most conventual lubes -

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I have no problem with anyone who wants to ue conventional lubes but PC is certainly NOT time consuming compared to lube sizing...maybe a very expensive Star being as fast. If it's slow for anyone, they just have not gotten the process down pat. I cook around 300 9mm's per batch for 20 minutes. In that 20 minutes I can tumble and stand on parchment, the next batch. I've had 450's and LAM II's (never a star) and I could never get 300 in 20 minutes. Especially a bevel base.

What happens when you drop a tumble lubed round on the dirty ground at the range? PC is no worse for wear.
I will say, tumble lube is pretty fast but I despise the mess and unless it's thinned properly (as you mention) it smokes like a tar kiln.

To each his own but I can devote a cold winter sunday to doing PC and I can coat several thousand without really putting in hard work.

I keep a lube sizer around thinking I may want to try it again someday.....That reminds me, I should probably spray it with something to keep it from rusting.

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Originally Posted by Oldfeller

Guys, got a direct link to this stuff?

Finding sub components for LEE presses is time consuming and I am never sure I have located the specific bits you are talking about.

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Here is a link to the individual sizing bushing: https://www.titanreloading.com/produ...nd-punch-sets/

You'll also want one of these to use the bushings: https://www.titanreloading.com/produ...let-sizer-kit/

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

in my experience powder coating is time consuming + expensive + shows not one single advantage in any way over properly applied liquid alox + most conventual lubes -

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It's not that there isn't any advantages of PCing bullets, you don't want to acknowledge the advantages of using PC. Which is fine, the old ways have worked for longer than the two of us have been around combine. But that doesn't mean there isn't advantages to the new way of doing things.

The BIG thing for me is less exposure. Either from handling loaded ammo, shoooting, or just handling bullets at the bench while loading, I get much less time with lead in contact with my hands. Might not be an issue for some, but I don't want to deal with heavy metal poisoning. Even if this reduces my lead count by the smallest fraction imaginable, that is worth it to me to continue doing what I love.

The second advantage, as I and others have already testified, no leading. Sure you can get a load to not lead with traditional lube. But I think you're missing the point we're making. Most of use don't even bother with gas checks anymore on loads that needed them before! PCing is THAT GOOD. We don't worry about hardness. I really only worry about tin content to the extent of getting good fillout. When hardness, gaschecks, and lube selection no long matter that is the very definition of an advantage.

Several members have done some accuracy testing, PCing showed a slight edge in most tests where accuracy was concerned. That's numeral 3. Though if we're being truthful, I'm not sure I entirely believe that one. It's been speculated that it has something to do with not flinging the lube off/away as it exits the barrel. Personally, the groups I've seen between the two are within my acceptable margin of error where it concerns my ability to be accurate. But, nonetheless, some are convinced that this is indeed the case. But there are certainly other things that could be considered advantageous compared to using traditional lube.

As for time consuming, it's not time consuming at all. You're really reaching here.... I spend less time messing with coating/sizing bullets than I ever did with lubed bullets. I don't have to worry about stacking them in a way that the lube isn't going to get contaminated or get pulled out of grooves. If I want I can sit the PC'd bullets in a plastic bowl on the bench for months without worrying about dust or debris... Storage these days is just filling up a ziplock bag full of ready to load bullets and sitting them on the shelf of my bench.

Ok, maybe we have an extra 20 minutes compared to tumble lubing to get the baked on. But not really, because you still gotta wait for the tumble lube to dry, and we don't. So that's a wash....

Being set in your ways with what works for you is fine. Not seeing value for yourself in a new way of doing things is fine. Saying there are no advantages for a new method that has been universally accepted on a global scale as being superior is something altogether different.

EDIT: As for expense, I think you're might mean to go from lubing to PC'ing. All you need is some PC ($15/lb, I have been using the same pound for 4 years now), an old toaster oven (costs nothing, got it for free), and sizer dies or bushings (use your Lyman 4500 if you want, you don't have to have push through dies). But even if you did buy push through dies, Lyman dies are $35-40/pc, the Lee push through dies are 8.99 at the links above. It's actually cheaper to PC than to lube....

The part where you still have to size each bullet after PC is what makes me think what's the point for shooters who already have a full setup for lube and sizing the traditional way. Viewed from that perspective there is zero time savings, but rather time added to the process. Also extra equipment to buy in the oven to bake the coating. I won't count the powder itself because that's no different than the lube to continue doing it the traditional way. I'm not discounting the actual apparent advantages of PC for higher velocity for shooters seeking such loads. If I ever try PC it would be to get a softer bullet going faster for better terminal performance on deer. So far I've had good luck with that with traditional lube at about 2,100ft/sec and haven't pushed farther yet. But it seems that most cast shooting volume is handgun loads where gas checks are required at all so PC doesn't really add anything there.

Again, if you are still going to size each bullet one at a time after PC, you haven't saved any time at all.

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Originally Posted by 35 Rem

The part where you still have to size each bullet after PC is what makes me think what's the point for shooters who already have a full setup for lube and sizing the traditional way. Viewed from that perspective there is zero time savings, but rather time added to the process. Also extra equipment to buy in the oven to bake the coating. I won't count the powder itself because that's no different than the lube to continue doing it the traditional way. I'm not discounting the actual apparent advantages of PC for higher velocity for shooters seeking such loads. If I ever try PC it would be to get a softer bullet going faster for better terminal performance on deer. So far I've had good luck with that with traditional lube at about 2,100ft/sec and haven't pushed farther yet. But it seems that most cast shooting volume is handgun loads where gas checks are required at all so PC doesn't really add anything there.

Again, if you are still going to size each bullet one at a time after PC, you haven't saved any time at all.

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To the leading part,

I have a handgun caliber rifle (H&R in 7.62x25) that experiences pretty bad leading the first 4" of barrel with Carnuba Red and 4.5gr of Red Dot. Barrel is .310, bullets sized to .312". Alloy, 50/50+2%. With PC I can size to .311, with all other variables the same, and I get zero leading.

The sizing thing is faster, you're not handling each bullet twice while lubing (once to put on the lubesizer, once after you've lubed it). I can size bullets twice as fast on a press with push through dies than I can on a lube sizer. Ok, maybe you have a few extra minutes while the bullets are cooking in the oven. But you're not standing over it... I simply stick my in the oven and set a time to let me know when to come back and check on them.

Seriously, I take about 200 fresh cast bullets, toss them into a plastic folgers can, dump about a teaspoon worth of powder in, shake for 30 seconds, dump over a screen to filter the bullets out of the powder/BB mix, then onto a silicone baking tray. It then gets put into the over at 415 for 40 minutes from cold start, or 30 minutes from warm start. When the timer goes off, pull the tray out, dump in water, pull them out, dry and size. If your design shoots better with checks, or actually needs them, something I typically haven't found up to 1600ish FPS, then you have the time putting those on.

As for the price of the oven, seriously, I got it for free. But toaster ovens are like $20...

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Originally Posted by jdgabbard

The sizing thing is faster, you're not handling each bullet twice while lubing (once to put on the lubesizer, once after you've lubed it). I can size bullets twice as fast on a press with push through dies than I can on a lube sizer.

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MUCH faster.
Certain bullets I cast...I will very lightly mist the coated bullets with water...they will fly through the sizer like grease through a goose. ....then it becomes a question of manual dexterity...how fast can you work? I also recommend music with a repetitious beat if you do a thousand or more...keep an eye on the red container and don't push the lid off....or better yet, an upside down press and a bucket. I've done a couple thousand in less than an hour with proper musical motivation...that includes pee breaks!

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Originally Posted by Nines&Twos

MUCH faster.
Certain bullets I cast...I will very lightly mist the coated bullets with water...they will fly through the sizer like grease through a goose. ....then it becomes a question of manual dexterity...how fast can you work? I also recommend music with a repetitious beat if you do a thousand or more...keep an eye on the red container and don't push the lid off....or better yet, an upside down press and a bucket. I've done a couple thousand in less than an hour with proper musical motivation...that includes pee breaks!

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For real... Everyone keeps coming up with reasons not to do it. I get it you like doing what you're doing. But if you're doing it right none of those reasons really hold much water as far as I'm concerned. It is legitimately cheaper and faster. And in my experience, as well as pretty much everyone I've talked to, produces superior loaded ammo. But to each their own. I won't stop the 10 year old from sticking his tongue to the pole, and I won't stop a man from choosing to lube his bullets over PCing them. But they'll have to sell the manure somewhere else, I'm all stocked up here...

:2_high5:

Interesting Arguments...from both sides.. "My dogs Better than your dog"
IDC what anyone is Doing...Never did! I enjoy working with my hands...almost mindlessly!! I also do Not strive to do even 100 rounds at a Sitting.. Not of a Single Caliber anyway...Bores me to Tears.. I'm the guy that would have about a hundred loaded, then decide to change something...and load differently!! Experimenting is what I like...IDC that the next guy wants a Million and Fast...Don't bother me. I say...Do What Makes You Happy...and I will Also... even If my way is 180 out from Your Way.
If I wish to compete...I go to the Drag Strip... Thanks

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Originally Posted by LenH

I have toyed with PC and am still on the fence about it. I already had a Magma Star sizer and dipped my toes in the PC world. I found out it just isn't for me.
I know that there are died in the wool PC guys but it just wasn't for me. I am still lubing bullets with TAC-1 Lube and it still works perfectly for me.

Dirty hands, well that is what soap is for.

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:goodpost:
LIKE !

My Lyman 450 was paid for in 1972 ... I can lube , size , seat a gas check and have a boolit ready to shoot with ... One Cycle of the handle ... Fast Fast Fast .
Too set in my ways to change now ... maybe 40 years ago ...
Gary

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Originally Posted by Nines&Twos

I have no problem with anyone who wants to ue conventional lubes but PC is certainly NOT time consuming compared to lube sizing...maybe a very expensive Star being as fast. If it's slow for anyone, they just have not gotten the process down pat. I cook around 300 9mm's per batch for 20 minutes. In that 20 minutes I can tumble and stand on parchment, the next batch. I've had 450's and LAM II's (never a star) and I could never get 300 in 20 minutes. Especially a bevel base.

What happens when you drop a tumble lubed round on the dirty ground at the range? PC is no worse for wear.
I will say, tumble lube is pretty fast but I despise the mess and unless it's thinned properly (as you mention) it smokes like a tar kiln.

To each his own but I can devote a cold winter sunday to doing PC and I can coat several thousand without really putting in hard work.

I keep a lube sizer around thinking I may want to try it again someday.....That reminds me, I should probably spray it with something to keep it from rusting.

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i have not had to size any of the cast bullets in over 5 decades + lubing them with liquid alox allows me to shoot as cast - i definitely still find it expensive + time consuming + pc has never shown me any advantage whatsoever - the only time i ever use a sizer is when putting gas checks on a few higher velocity rifle rounds - proper size molds do not require sizing - if i ever drop a tumble lubed one it takes only a second to wipe it off + PC bullet also pick up contaminants if dropped in sand or dirt -

Do you always have to size PC'd bullets? I try not to size if I don't have too. I mostly plink with pistols in large quantities. Also have a suppressed FA Uzi.

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Originally Posted by dondiego

Do you always have to size PC'd bullets? I try not to size if I don't have too. I mostly plink with pistols in large quantities. Also have a suppressed FA Uzi.

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While I am decidedly Not Expert, I find that some need sized...some do Not... I think it a Plus if don't need sized..,
Note; I have One 357Mag that has smallish Bore and therefor, smallish Throats..I find much better performance accross the board, sizing Boolits for That Piece, to .358..

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Originally Posted by racepres

While I am decidedly Not Expert, I find that some need sized...some do Not... I think it a Plus if don't need sized..,
Note; I have One 357Mag that has smallish Bore and therefor, smallish Throats..I find much better performance accross the board, sizing Boolits for That Piece, to .358..

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I understand. It's like any bullets. They have to be the size that you need and if they aren't, you need to fix them. I do like the fact that you can increase the size of a cast bullet by adding PC. I have the stuff to do it but just haven't cast any fresh bullets to give it a try yet. I have so many good bullets on hand already, I might not ever do it!

I was slow to coated but once I got into it, I wont go back to lubed bullets. They load & shoot cleaner, just as accurate in handguns, less smoke & cost is minimal. Yes they require more time than my Star, but get a system down, its not that much time for the benefits. FWIW, my exp over the chrono shows a very slight increase in vel over identical bullets lubed. I could care less about what the bullets look like.

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Originally Posted by dondiego

Do you always have to size PC'd bullets? I try not to size if I don't have too. I mostly plink with pistols in large quantities. Also have a suppressed FA Uzi.

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No but I like uniform bullets for loading into mixed brass. Get a thick case & fat bullet, it will be an issue.

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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

in my experience powder coating is time consuming + expensive + shows not one single advantage in any way over properly applied liquid alox + most conventual lubes -

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Spoken like someone who hasnt shot many coated. The only downside to coated, PC or HT is time involved. It takes me an extra hour to coat the 1000 bullets. Sizing time is the same using a Lee APP v my Star. So fo an extra 1hr I get cleaner bullets to load & shoot & less smoke> on still days or at night shoots, thats a big deal.

It is simple. If you have a lube sizer and like using it and the performance of your bullets is what you want, then why change? Just keep doing it the way you have been doing it.

I went to PC a few years ago because I did not want to pay for a lubesizer and all the dies. Pan lubing was a PITA. So I went to PC and the NOE die setup. A $30 toaster oven and $15 of powder. That worked for thousands of bullets. No worries about leading at all. No mess. And no smoke in the indoor range.

Then I ran into a used lubesizer for a price I could not pass up with the dies I needed. So, now two of my bullets I use exclusively with the lubesizer (rifle) and 5 I use PC (2 rifle, 3 pistol).

PS if interested in PC, try it. Cheap enough to get into. If you don't like it don't do it again.

Well for me . I got into PC after I was fighting to try to shoot cast and lube in a semi auto and ask those of you for help on it and then with some of yours help . I got into it and now I am able to shoot cast with out any problems in a semi auto like I was having. But other types of guns . I use the lube . Yes with PC I was able to increase the size of some of the boolits that I like to have them. Both ways works for me and I found what works best for what I need them for and go from there. As for lube I make my own so that is not a problem. But now I have another way to get what I want out of what I need . It works for me .

Just started pc this week! Was lubing with the 45/45/10 method, I have not fired any pc yet. Also I cast just for handgun rounds. If these pc bullets shoot and there’s no leading I’ll be a full convert! East to apply gc and size effortlessly! I’m sold.

I always cast and PC at the same time.
My toaster oven and 20# Lee pot take about the same amount of time to come up to temp.
I cast a pile of boolits until my pot is just under half full, then I will load the pot up with more ingots.
While waiting for the lead to melt, I do a quick inspection, then shake the boolits, sift them on
hardware cloth, dump them on either parchment paper or non stick foil and put them in to bake.
With a 6 cavity mold, the 20 minute cast and cook cycle usually synch up pretty well.
The time it takes to load up the pot and take out the cooked bullets is usually sufficient to cool the fresh cast boolits enough to handle for shaking.
I find this a good use of the time while waiting for the refilled pot to come up to temp.

Sizing (Lee push through) is usually done within a week of the cast and PC session.

I have a Star and a RCBS LAM that I just can't bring myself to sell, but I never use them.

I use both LLA and PC depending on the use-or my mood. I just shake and bake the PC in an old toaster oven. I like PC for hunting ammo and gas gun use because it is cleaner.
I haven’t noticed any difference in accuracy between the two.