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When Barnes bullets came out the guy that taught me to reload tried some and had a lot of problems with copper fouling. If copper sheets or tubing was used to make jackets, would they also be a problem with fouling. I understand that I could buy jackets made from guilding metal, but they are hard to find and expensive. I am super interested in making jacketed bullets, but not looking to add a fouling problem.
Nearly all factory jackets are made from guilding metal. Copper hardens from working it. Swaging from sheet metal usually involves not only making a jacket the right diameter and right length, but also swaging it down from around .032 thickness to around .012. This is done in successive steps and usually works the metal until it is hard. If the metal is solid copper (like most tubing) with no zinc, it will not get as hard and is more likely to foul barrels. Guilding metal has about 5-10% zinc. Some red brass alloys are 15% zinc 85% copper, but other red brass alloys may contain tin and lead and less zinc. The 85/15 red brass has more zinc than guilding metal. You can use that if you are worried about fouling. If you anneal jacket metal before swaging, this will make the metal soft again and much more prone to foul barrels. If you use a reloading press to swage bullets, you may have to anneal because the press may not be powerful enough to move the metal otherwise. Of course, if you want the easiest way to minimize fouling, use un-annealed or work hardened brass cases for bullet jackets and use a swaging press to do it. It is less cost and very accurate bullets can be made this way. Hope this helps. Early Barnes bullet jackets were probably annealed too much resulting in soft metal. Soft jackets are easy on swaging equipment (of special interest to new manufacturer breaking in equipment), but also easy to foul barrels.
How far into swaging are you? Are you just thinking about starting or do you already have the equipment? If you do not have any of the equipment you may be find it prohibitively expensive to get started. Making jackets and swaging is not necessarily a cheap alternative to buying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebb
I am just looking at the process right now. With me it is more of a way to have components now that they are scarce.
From scratch cost can be around $500-$900 (depending on die set) for press and dies, and additional calibers from $175 - $550 depending on die set. It is not that bad. These prices are for new RCE press and dies. BSS (Blackman's) would be in the same range. Of course Corbins or BT Sniper would be 5X more and I believe RCE are much better dies and presses both in design and quality.
I shoot a lot of .308 swaged from 5/16 Copper Tubing and 147 grain made from 22WMR Brass; and .223 made from swaging 22LR for 60 Grain and 17HMR for making 75/85 grain. Just as with commercial bullets; I use a bore solvent to clean the barrels of both calibers. Hoppes on most cleaning; but then every 5 or 6 cleaning I use either Sweets 7.62 or Montanan X-Treme bore solvents for cleaning fouling out. Not much of an issue; yes you will get the greenish color on the patches, but usually two cycles with the brass brush and solvent cleans any accumulated fouling. Keep in mind, if you use a brass brush with these solvents you will NEVER get a totally clean first patch after using the brush because it also will pick up green from the copper brush - not the barrel.
I would not worry about the Copper Tubing based on my personal 15 years experience of making .308 bullets from 5/16 Copper Tubing.
I agree with Sasquatch-1, starting to make jackets will be a very expensive project. I looked into this about ten years ago.
I can't see starting to make jackets without having a hydraulic press to start with.
I gave up due to copper cost alone, just couldn't justify all that would be involved.
You're probable looking at three to four draw dies depending on the caliber plus a blanking die to start the process, that's all going to cost.
If you get to the last drawing step a pinch die will be required to complete the jacket, another operation.
So, to do a 1000-piece lot you will end up doing between 4000-5000 operations plus the time to make and this total cost may only be for one caliber.
Just some information to think about of what is involved.
What calibers are you looking to make? If some of the more common pistol calibers certain pistol brass can be used. If for a .22 cal. rifle you can use .22 rimfire brass with a set of de-rimming dies.
Any way you look at it, the initial investment will be large. A minimum of at least $1000.00
Good points. A hydraulic press is much more convenient, but jackets can easily be swaged on any RCE hand press. At present I do not swage from strip, but do swage from copper tubing. I bought a RCE tubing jacket maker with all dies, punches, jacket strippers, etc for making 4 different lengths of jackets from 5/8" to 1.5" for calibers 510, 500, 458, and 414 for $575. Other jacket reducing die sets for different calibers can be had from RCE for $85 per caliber or from Lee (custom sizing dies and punches) for $51.Quote:
Originally Posted by KAYDADOG
It seems many people may think it is prohibitively expensive because they price the same dies and punches from other makers at 5x or 10x the cost.
Since the price of copper has gone up 15x since 2000 and will likely keep going up, and since most of it will go into making electric cars instead of ammo components for the foreseeable future, making your own will likely be the ONLY way to have ready availability for shooting components in the near future. It is almost that way now in many calibers. I have even resorted to forming my own brass cases from more common cases for some calibers I shoot (i.e. 35 Remington and 416 Ruger) because of lack of availability. That is another discussion for another thread.
Each person has to decide for themselves how much money is too much money and how much trouble is too much trouble when it comes to buying and using swaging equipment. Me, I am buying all the swaging equipment I can afford while there are still relatively affordable options. There are really only 2 affordable options left and they are Richard Corbin (RCE) and Larry Blackman (BSS) and they are both retirement age. When those 2 go away, everything else will be 5x to 10x the price for swaging dies and presses (if available at all), and that IS too much, even for me.
I will go counter to the trend and say that in my experience; even though costs are high for swaging presses, dies etc...; one has to think Long Term. I got into swaging in the late 1980's when I bought a Corbin Press, and dies to make .224 bullets from 22LR brass. Then as now the price of ammunition was increasing and if memory serves the availability of military surplus ammunition was getting spotty at that time. There were lots of cheap pull down .30 and .22 bullets available - so making your own was fiscally foolish in the short term. I had a bolt action .223; but still abhorred the Black Rifle Trend, so I had no AR's; but bought the .224 swaging dies for the future; and the .308 a few years later. Then as now; lead times for Swaging dies was several months. Parting with the cash to purchase was painful to the monthly budget/savings then; just as it would be today at current prices.
In the long run I am now ahead of the game. Purchase copper tubing when it's prices are down or find it at a Garage Sale. Pick up brass to make bullets each range trip or walk through the woods or desert where others are shooting and leaving it lay. I pretty much make .224 and .308 bullets at 2 to5 cents each based on having the Press, Dies, and collected materials. No need to buy those $30.00 to $60.00 boxes of 100 bullets at the Big Sporting Goods store. As I said, Long term shooting investment. I agree with some who will criticize saying that I could have invested the cash in the market or other investments and it would be worth considerably more - but then I would not have had the recreational experiences and mental diversion of "Bulding my own Bullets" over the last 4 decades.
To each their own - Do you really need that new Firearm - or should you invest the money for outyears; same thought process.
If you have not seen one, here is what a Tubing Jacket Maker set from RCE looks like.
Attachment 326277
Wow... that looks a lot more complicated then I envisioned. I though I could just make hole (drill, ream, polish) in blank die with 45 degree angle at the bottom, machine a matching angle punch that fits inside the tube with a shoulder and use a slightly longer piece of of tube to press it in and end up with tapered rolled over end, then run a flat punch in to a core seating die to straighten the end and that it! There is also ejection pin to push it out.
I made a prototype but it was a fail and I think the problem was that I need to buy a 45 degree (90 degree point) end mill, otherwise the drilled hole was not tapered enough. Or perhaps I need 80 degree angle?
Attachment 326364
The die above is indeed a 45deg angle, but the punch can be flat bottom than ends where the angle starts.