325 or 270HP in 45 Colt for deer

Just a bit of thinking out loud.

LBT 325 Keith over 22gr of H-110
Mihec 270SAA HP over 24gr of H-110

Which would be better for whitetail?

I have killed a few deer over the past few years with the 325 and they all ran about 20 to 50 yards. There has always been a surprising lack of blood trail and at the shot I get a sick feeling. I can tell I hit the deer, but dang they run like they haven't been touched. My shots are usually between 60 and 100 yards and sometimes it's hard to tell where the deer was standing to start my search. And for what it's worth, my shots are "good". Right behind the shoulder, a bit below center. I may need to pull a bit more forward and try to break shoulders, but there is some mental block I have that doesn't allow me to do that. My grandfather always said to shoot behind the shoulder and it's like I go on autopilot and shoot there even though I know I should break the shoulder.

I am thinking of trying the Mihec in the hopes that the "ears" of the hp will shear off and leave sort of a jagged wad cutter that will transfer more energy and have more of a tearing effect for more blood. But I am giving up 50 or so grains of weight. Of course, my first handgun deer was shot with a 44 with 300gr factory loads. It ran about 50 yards. Dad shot a deer from the same stand a few days later with the 500 Smith shooting 440's and his deer ran 80 yards. Both were shot behind the shoulder and I bet if you measured, the boolits hit within an inch of each other on the deer. So I guess the weight is not that big of a factor.

And to those who say they drop all deer in their tracks with lil ol 44's with 240s at around 1K..... I don't know how you do it. My deer must be tough. I love to handgun hunt but cant stand the thought of losing one.

My experience has been that with light game like deer and small hogs hollow points do kill faster. With the Lyman devastator h.p. out of the 44 mag the entrance hole will some times be big enough to leave a blood trail.
I have never had any trouble with penetration on white tails so I don't really see the need for very heavy solid bullets.

The meplat size is what makes the difference on thin skinned animals such as deer. Both the Keith bullets you described I believe had about the same meplat diameter being close to .320 give or take a few .001's. You are going to fully penetrate from one end to the other with both bullets and the reason for using a heavier would be for more penetration so on deer I don't see an advantage with the heavier boolit unless it has a larger meplat. A HP does provide more internal damage with its expansion providing the alloy is of the right BHN to perform as it should. What velocities are you shooting at as too fast of a bullet doesn't provide enough dwell time to create the shock wave; too fast of a bullet just pokes right on through.

Again RobS is giving good information.
You really want two holes in an animal with the revolver. Every deer I ever shot with expanding jacketed that did not exit had ZERO blood trails.
Tek, you are OK with the 325 gr. you must realize that blood trails do not start at the impact point and it could be more then 20 yards until you find any. You do not have the shock of a rifle so you need to depend on the deer bleeding out.
You need to disrupt the nervous system for a bang-flop, so don't expect it.
Deer going 20 to 50 or more yards is OK. Most deer take 10 seconds to die even from a broad head but can make 100 yards very quick.
You are doing what is needed and I don't think you can improve on it.
The revolver is not less effective then a rifle, seen too many guys hit deer with 7mm mags and .300's go a mile with almost no blood trails, found some but lost many. I help them if they come and ask but most times we lose the deer.
I have already found a bunch of dead deer eaten up by animals from the rifle hunters.
Yes, you can lose one now and then, you just have to get over it.
My experience with the revolvers is that once you find blood from a good hit, there will be a lot of it so do not quit what you are doing, make two holes.

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Originally Posted by 44man

You do not have the shock of a rifle so you need to depend on the deer bleeding out.

My experience with the revolvers is that once you find blood from a good hit, there will be a lot of it so do not quit what you are doing, make two holes.

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Dependent on what you do and how you cast with your alloy, the first statement can be wrong. It takes very little energy (about 400 ft. lbs.) to kill a deer immediately. You have to transfer that energy to the deer at the proper place at the proper time. Expanding boolits do that...........and exit then.

Making two holes does NOT guarantee a blood trail...or any blood at all. A big FAT doe can be punched by one of your loads (hard boolit and all) and leave absolutely no blood and be lost due to fat plugging both holes. I found her a week later (when it warmed up enough to smell her) and examined the holes in her. Complete penetration from both hits in very vital areas and a totally destroyed heart also. She ran about 350 yds from where she was shot. My mistake was not shooting bone with a solid or not using one of my hollow points.

Only one thing is for sure and that is that any thing can happen. What your doing now is working and will work just as well with either bullet. As for shooting out shoulders I've never been a big fan of that I too take a boiler room shot or if closer anmd from a good rest a neck shot. Dennis

It is always amazing to me how even small thin-skinned animals have so much desire to live and will try very hard to avoid being food for their prey. I agree that 2 holes help, but don't guarantee a blood trail. What may help more is some modification to your hunting technique.
Years ago my BIL and I were out and came across 4 big whitetail bucks in mulie country. I shot the biggest one of them (or so I thought). The other three took off, of course. My BIL said, Why didn't you shoot the big one? Evidently his estimation of the biggest was different than mine. We ran off and looked over the hill where they ran, but they were long gone. I went back and looked where I'd shot- or so I thought. Nothing. It was a 100 yard shot, and I was sure it was a good hit. I was using my 7MM Mag at the time, and it usually stacks 'em in their tracks. After some looking, my BIL said "Over here!" and had found the buck. It had indeed dropped right in its tracks. It had happened so fast I didn't even see it due to the rifle's recoil.
Now I'm getting to the point: When you shoot, find as many landmarks as you can from the point of your shot. You know the boolit travelled in a straight line. If circumstances allow, let someone else go to the site and you direct right from where you shot.
Next, if the critter definitely did run after the shot, wait. do some more landmarking as you wait. A well hit animal will want to lay down as soon as it feels it is safe. If you are NOT chasing, this may be 100 yards or less. If you run after, a liver hit animal may go a mile bleeding out internally and give you little too look for.
Sometimes not getting in too big a hurry helps a lot.
Or, what I do a lot for meat hunting is a CNS shot. You have to be certain you can make a clean shot, but if you are accurate, and can hit the CNS, the whole thing ends right there. I will add that I don't do that with a pistol. I am not that good with a short barrel, and likely won't ever be.

I would use whichever one shoots most accurately from your revolver.

Groo here
I had the same problem with 320gr SSK bullets from our 44mags.
The deer was hit 5 times - all through the K-zone.[one broke a sholder]
and ran over 100 yds up hill and down. All but one went through[ texas hart shot at over 50yd]
After talking with J D Jones of SSK we were convenced that deer do not need near that
much power. Most being used to travel on the other side of the deer.
I now use 220 to 240 gr hp or fp for deer from pistols.
PS. The load ,bullet,and metal mix were used to take Big game allover the world
By JD and Davis of Magnaport..
It was Too Hard and Too Heavy for something as light as a 200 lb deer.

I have killed 60 or 70 head of big game including deer, elk, carabue, bear, buffalo and antilope. From my experience a bang flop occures fairly seldom and even more seldom with big heavy bullets going rather slowly. It is typical for an animal to go some distance be it a couple of jumps or 100 yards or so after being solidly hit through the chest. The only way I know of stopping an animal for sure is bust a front shoulder joint, break its spine or blow its head off. That is why most dangerous game hunters in africa hunt with solid bullets and aim for a shoulder shot. You break the animal down and and if necessay finish it with a shot behind the ear. With a hand gun you should expect to do some tracking unless you get lucky and hit a vital spot that disrups the anmals nervous system like right now. Even hart shots can be expected to run for about 10 secinds. That is one reason I started using a 30-06 with 150 gr bullets for white tails years ago. The would run only a couple of jumps before falling over. They were much easier to find in heavy brush of New England and NY state where I hunted in those days. However. It did waist meat.

I have found that each and every animal is a law unto itself. There are no absolutes. I have had animals run off for a distance hunting with rifles (including some big bangers like my .416 Remington), as well as with revolvers. I have also found that particularly with my .475 Linebaugh, I am not giving anything up to a high-powered rifle with regards to terminal performance.

Well I managed to bang flop one this morning with my measly ol 44 loaded with 300gr Keiths. I had 8 deer literally on top of me when it was too early to see the sights. Full rut type action with 5 bucks running the does in circles around my stand. There was one nice buck behind me, but I decided to let someone else take him later since those horns do nothing for me. A big bull horn spike walked up intent on joining the action and messed up and gave me a head on shot at about 25 yards. One thru the neck anchored him in his tracks. None of the others seemed to notice the shot and I sat there looking at them for another 15 minutes before I finally climbed down and ran them off.

Thanks for all the opinions so far. I know that the Mihec will continue thru even after shedding the ears of the HP, so I don't feel like I will be giving up any penetration. I was just hoping it would be like a Winchester Ranger on steroids. But reading the replies here, it seems like an instant blood trail is somewhat a pipe dream. Where I hunt, there are planted pines with grass that is head high, so if a deer is more than 2 feet away, you aren't going to see it. And, of course that is where they head when they are shot.

On that 30-06 with 150's, I did the same. I went from 165 Gamekings to 150's. Then on a whim, I tried some 125's. They do much better than any other load I have found. The deer act like they are shot with my 220 Swift or my 8mm Mag when the 125 hits them.

I like to stand still @ the shot and listen to it running or watch it laying on the ground. All ways watch for it to come back to life in a few minutes. Note land marks if needed. Use flagging tape bathroom tissue to mark trail /blood/ or direction of travel. ( Tissue handy for other uses). Larger deer sounds like a horse running and can make a loud noise falling. Move slowly and, "Stop - Look - listen", is still good advice. Here in Illinois slugs DO make a large hole, but NOT all ways a good blood trail....SEE YUW
CLAYPOOL

I have shot deer through the shoulders and dropped right there. I have also shot in the boiler room and dropped right there. I have also shot through the boiler room and had them go anywhere from 35 yards to 100. Every deer is different. Neck shots can be good but you got to know your gonna hit them where it counts. An inch off can spell some tracking.

Good morning
An old Michigan hunter once said for whitetail to figure about a grain of lead for a pound of deer. That was with black powder velocities in a rifle.
I find that is a OK guide line with the average mag revolver to include modern 45 Colt loads.

I almost always get a "bang-flop" from my rifles using jacketed bullets. I hit the deer at a sharp angle through the shoulder and take out the heart as well. Ruins some meat, but it sure beats tracking them especially when sharing the woods with many other hunters in close proximity. Same shot with a revolver is no where near as consistent. Sometimes they drop on the spot, sometimes they run 100 yards even when the damage appears the same from deer to deer. At least that has been my experience. I would be happy if every deer I'd taken with a revolver only went 20-50 yards. Sounds like your set up is working great!

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Originally Posted by 45 2.1

Dependent on what you do and how you cast with your alloy, the first statement can be wrong. It takes very little energy (about 400 ft. lbs.) to kill a deer immediately. You have to transfer that energy to the deer at the proper place at the proper time. Expanding boolits do that...........and exit then.

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So what happens at 300 FPE? Or 80 FPE? FPE is a poor tool to rate lethality

I do not believe in energy or any paper figures, only boolit work inside the animal.
The very best with a revolver is a good meplat shot between 1300 and 1400 fps. That gives the most internal damage. Shoot the boolit too fast and you can lose the deer with a small hole poked through and even shot too slow can do the same.
I advocate two holes but when you do not match velocity you need some expansion.
All of our blood trails are best with hard boolits from all calibers at 1350 fps, you can run on them.
When you start to speed up boolits or slow them down or use fast expanding bullets that do not go through, you are not getting a good blood trail.
Lighter boolits in the .44 will work but don't shoot them faster then 1350 fps, don't think 1500 fps is better because you will poke a pencil hole.
Softening the boolit or using a hollow point can stop the boolit in a small deer and that small entrance hole will not leak much.
Entrance and exit holes need not be large but internal damage will let blood pour from the holes.
Boolit weight in the .44 can be very heavy, I use 310 to 330 gr for deer but velocity is at the right spot. Don't ever think shooting a lighter boolit faster will work better.
I shot too many deer with 240 gr XTP's that had zero blood trails when back tracking them because I had one hole and recovered all bullets with perfect mushrooms. I seen them fall and if they had gotten into the brush, they might be lost.
I shot and lost several deer shot with WLN and WFN boolits going TOO FAST, 1632 fps. A softer, hollow point stopped that junk right quick.
All of your experiences mirror mine because you are out of touch with the proper velocities for the boolit used.
Don't blame fat plugging a hole, blame the boolit shot too fast or slow that did not ruin the insides of the animal. Fat on the rib cage or shoulders is so little and hard, it will not plug, only internal fat around guts is soft, intestines can plug a hole. Deer fat on the outside is very hard. There is NO FAT in the boiler room. The most soft fat is around the kidneys so if you get a plugged hole, you gut shot the deer.
Yes, when I see a deer go down, I back track all of them looking to see what blood is on the ground up to the spot they were shot. You will learn more from that then anything else.
I can't agree with Groo at all. I have never lost a deer shot with hard, heavy boolits from the .44. Blood trails are enormous.
How in the world can you hit a deer five times with a revolver? But then I seen a small deer take 11 shots with 12 ga slugs before it went down for good.
If you make a bad hit with the first shot, you can tear a little deer to pieces before it gives it up.

On the thoughts of the HP's not passing completely thru the deer... Don't you think the 270 SAA will still completely pass thru when I drive it over 1200fps? I can't imagine it not making it all the way through the deer on a broadside shot.

tek

on a broadside shot............i think that 270 will pass through a deer if its traveling at anything over 950 fps